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#51
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Skating in citizen classic races
Gary Jacobson wrote:
I agree with you. I was eating granola when typing. I didn't know that you were talking about racing at the level where 10ths of seconds count, or at least felt like they did. I guess I now take racing with a more relaxed attitude than I once did, so I my views about this are not valid if applied to the the best performers in a race. It's equally valid to care about the rules no matter what your placing, is Dell's point, I think. And he's totally right. Furthermore, I suspect that quite a few people care about moving up from 60th to 50th or 200th to 150th or whatever and small or large time differences all matter to them. Furthermore furthermore there are probably very often friendly rivalries at every level of racing in a given field or pack of skiers. Those who regularly do it, or who even just enter one race WITH SOMEONE ELSE, maybe someone they know, would want the game to be fair. If I'm finishing at 100th place and am getting my act together compared to my pal who got 90th place and I'm set to beat him in a classic race and look back to see him gaining back on me by using skate technique I might be peeved. Placings and times are all, of course, relative (as is speed) and immaterial to the subject. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ... ... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ... ... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ... ... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ... ... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ... ... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923 |
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#52
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Skating in citizen classic races
jim farrell wrote:
[ ] changes are simply obeying the rules to a tee. The rules do or don't allow for a lane to lane skate? If so, take advantage of it, even if you look down on it as a loophole. Maybe rule vary but I recall reading about a frequency cap. Coulda been years ago. Thinking of how things change, I also remember different colored spray paint on corners in the course at the 87 Natls signifying the moves that could be used in which corners. Do they still do that? Probably not. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ... ... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ... ... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ... ... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ... ... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ... ... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923 |
#53
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Skating in citizen classic races
Mitch Collinsworth wrote:
[ ] I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks, Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either, but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack by adopting it. I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone know names for these? Pendulum, I thought some were called. I accidently do it when I get thrown off for some reason. I did it in the last race. Oops, I didn't do the kick-kick-DP, I did the pendulum pole action then KDP. So I did an "air DP" then KDP. I find myself doing it much more often when using wood skis and bamboo poles. It seems like an upright posture move. But the top racers use to do all kinds of 'air pole' doublepumping and such, scissoring the poles, etc. It's very pretty and totally a part of good ski RHYTHM. --But not all that fast these days, eh? -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ... ... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ... ... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ... ... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ... ... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ... ... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923 |
#54
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Skating in citizen classic races
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:16:26 -0500, Jeff Potter
wrote: Furthermore, I suspect that quite a few people care about moving up from 60th to 50th or 200th to 150th or whatever and small or large time differences all matter to them. (more snipped) Well said. Yes, even minor placings like that would matter to me. And to turn it around, if small time intervals are not so important, than it seems to that the person who wants to break the rules "just to finish" should be the one to either give up the time or quit the race. JFT |
#55
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Skating in citizen classic races
In article , "Griss"
wrote: "levi" wrote I never said it was legal, did I? A better expression of what I meant was that I can see no logical basis for disqualifying the technique. OK. You originally said "Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for disallowing diagonal-skate in a "classical" race" I understood this to mean that you couldn't see why someone would not be allowed to use it in the race, so my simple point: because it's against the rules. But now I understand that what you intended to say is that you didn't see any logical basis for putting it in the rules in the first place. Good point. If you start with the premise that it is worth while distinguishing between the two techniques for competitive purposes (you may or may not agree), I think the logical basis for disallowing that stuff in the rules is that it is a relatively easy way to distinguish, in writing, between the two techniques, and that it goes a long way in defining the "essence" of classic skiing. After all, one is called skating (freestyle actually), so it makes sense to me, logically, to eliminate skating-like motions (including herringbone w/ glide) from classical style races. Even though skating has been and always will be part of the recreational classic skier's repertiore, it still makes sense for the purposes of competition. I will be adding herringbone skate (aka diagonal skate) to my "classic" technique bag of tricks - except, of course, in races. Should have thought of it years ago - shows you what blind adherence to meaningless rules will do to your fun factor (see "snowboarding"). Hey, go for it! You're not breaking any new ground here. Nobody ever said you couldn't or shouldn't. It never crossed my mind that you felt you had to follow FIS classic ski race rules when recreational skiing, and for that I apologise. You're right - that sort of blind adherance prevented you from a lot of fun stuff you can do on skis. This is as silly as following rules governing snowboard competition when out snowboarding for fun. I suggest adding V1, V2, parallel turns, tele turns, "ballet" etc to your bag of tricks.on striding (and skating) skis. I always have, when the situation calls for it. Big deal, I'm not breaking new ground either. I was taught, observed and used all sorts of skating on alpine and XC touring gear from the time I learned alpine as a kid in the 60s, and took up XC touring in the early 70s. The one and only reason I ski is to have fun, and the only reason to follow "rules" is if and when I enter some sort of event with rules (very rarely). I think we're clear now, and in agreement - thanks for your patience. |
#56
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Skating in citizen classic races
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#57
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Skating in citizen classic races
"Mitch Collinsworth" wrote in message
r.cornell.edu... On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Scott Elliot wrote: Agreed. According to the laws of physics you could not turn without applying force so you cannot turn without push. Step turn without pus is what FIS wrote, so the rules were obviously written by lawyers, not scientists. I believe the meaning is that you can't use push to accelerate in a step turn where tracks are set. Where there are no set tracks, you can do a step turn with push so you should be able to get some acceleration for really fast downhill sections. The intent is apparently to keep people from effectively skating around easy curves in the trail, but still allow aggressive skiing on downhill sections where tracks have been lifted. Still not sure I understand the rule. Is it saying that where there is a set track you must not push with the edge of a gliding ski? Or is there still some in-between situation I'm not understanding? -Mitch In my opinion it is a very subjective rule which makes it hard for officials to make a call in some circumstances. It had become very common in high calibre races for skiers to cut to the inside of the track on most curves and do a sort of one sided skate turn, both shortening the distance by taking the inside track and getting the advantage of a faster skate type stride. FIS decided to stop this in classic races. Step turn is defined as a classic technique, but step turn with push is not allowed where there is a set track. It was also suggested that hard barriers such as V boards be put close to the inside of the track on curves so that there would not be room to ski between the track and the edge of the trail. This rule if very hard for officials to judge so many FIS type courses will be set so that there are no tracks on fast downhill curves. Where there is no track, step turn with push is allowed, so effectively a skate type stride is OK as long as the skate is always turning the ski into the curve, not out of it. If a skier comes out of a curve and is not aligned with the set tracks, most officials will also allow a skate type stride or two in order to get back in the track. Despite what some countries have advocated there is not set number of skate strides that are allowed. It is a judgement call on the part of the officials whether the strides are just to get into the tracks or if an advantage is being gained by taking several strides when one or two would be enough. Generally, most officials would be looking to see whether skiers are trying to get a speed advantage by doing step turns out of the track instead of double poling or striding in the track. If there is a speed advantage, the step turns probably are being done with push and should be called. For the skier, there are also a few judgement calls to make. If you are not sure whether you can stay in the tracks on a downhill curve, it may be safest to get out of the tracks and do step turns. How aggressive can the step turns be before they become illegal? On a sharp turn on a flat section, the track may become worn and the ski will slide out of the track on the outside. You will now have to do a step turn to get back in the track. If you had stayed in the track you would probably have done a double pole or kick-double pole. How aggressive can you step back into the track be before it becomes illegal. What if the tracks are starting to completely disintegrate and this happens all the way around the curve? It may look like a skate turn, but that is how skiers would have handled the curve for many years. At a recent NorAm race I happened to be standing next to a Technical Delegate and asked him about this where skiers were making a sharp curve around the back of the stadium. He called over another TD and discussed the situation. They decided that technically what most skiers were doing was not in accordance with the "without push" rule, but practically it was the only efficient way to race around the curve and would not be called unless anyone purposely abused the curve. Officials don't like to make judgement calls like this so the easiest solution is to lift tracks on downhill curves and not start them again until a short distance after the curve so that skiers have a chance to align themselves before the tracks start. |
#58
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Skating in citizen classic races
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Jeff Potter wrote: Mitch Collinsworth wrote: I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks, Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either, but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack by adopting it. I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone know names for these? Sorry, I lied. The woody clip is at about 9:40 into the 2nd avi, Vasaloppet02.avi. Not very long but a fun peek into history. -Mitch |
#59
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Skating in citizen classic races
Jeff Potter wrote in message ...
I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks, Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either, but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack by adopting it. I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone know names for these? Two-kicked DP? (In a direct translation from Finnish, the above would be: "two-kicked even-push".) There was also a three-and a four-phased diagonal technique, which involved complicated acrobatics with the pole you wouldn´t plant when you would in the normal two-phased technique. All of these techniques are largely obsolate now when the tracks are built like motorways and there´s much less need ro time and adjust your technique, when glide is very seldom insufficient for simple DP which is now the most energy-efficient technique and there´s no urgency to use a technique that would bring a short respite from normal diagonal technique. It's very pretty and totally a part of good ski RHYTHM. I was taught skiing by old folks and I used to be able to at least demonstrate those techniques, but now I´m afraid I can only produce something that my coaches would frown upon and that has very little of the grace they had. Anders |
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