A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Nordic Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Skating in citizen classic races



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old March 13th 04, 04:16 PM
Jeff Potter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

Gary Jacobson wrote:

I agree with you. I was eating granola when typing. I didn't know that you
were talking about racing at the level where 10ths of seconds count, or at
least felt like they did. I guess I now take racing with a more relaxed
attitude than I once did, so I my views about this are not valid if applied
to the the best performers in a race.


It's equally valid to care about the rules no matter what your placing, is
Dell's point, I think. And he's totally right.

Furthermore, I suspect that quite a few people care about moving up from 60th
to 50th or 200th to 150th or whatever and small or large time differences all
matter to them.

Furthermore furthermore there are probably very often friendly rivalries at
every level of racing in a given field or pack of skiers. Those who regularly
do it, or who even just enter one race WITH SOMEONE ELSE, maybe someone they
know, would want the game to be fair. If I'm finishing at 100th place and am
getting my act together compared to my pal who got 90th place and I'm set to
beat him in a classic race and look back to see him gaining back on me by
using skate technique I might be peeved.

Placings and times are all, of course, relative (as is speed) and immaterial
to the subject.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


Ads
  #52  
Old March 13th 04, 04:19 PM
Jeff Potter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

jim farrell wrote:

[ ]
changes are simply obeying the rules to a tee. The rules do or don't
allow for a lane to lane skate? If so, take advantage of it, even if
you look down on it as a loophole.


Maybe rule vary but I recall reading about a frequency cap. Coulda been years
ago.

Thinking of how things change, I also remember different colored spray paint
on corners in the course at the 87 Natls signifying the moves that could be
used in which corners. Do they still do that? Probably not.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


  #53  
Old March 13th 04, 04:24 PM
Jeff Potter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

Mitch Collinsworth wrote:

[ ]

I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks,
Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race
from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was
doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either,
but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack
by adopting it.


I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone
know names for these?

Pendulum, I thought some were called.

I accidently do it when I get thrown off for some reason. I did it in the
last race. Oops, I didn't do the kick-kick-DP, I did the pendulum pole
action then KDP. So I did an "air DP" then KDP. I find myself doing it
much more often when using wood skis and bamboo poles. It seems like an
upright posture move. But the top racers use to do all kinds of 'air
pole' doublepumping and such, scissoring the poles, etc. It's very pretty
and totally a part of good ski RHYTHM. --But not all that fast these
days, eh?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923


  #54  
Old March 13th 04, 07:47 PM
John Forrest Tomlinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:16:26 -0500, Jeff Potter
wrote:

Furthermore, I suspect that quite a few people care about moving up from 60th
to 50th or 200th to 150th or whatever and small or large time differences all
matter to them.


(more snipped)

Well said. Yes, even minor placings like that would matter to me.
And to turn it around, if small time intervals are not so important,
than it seems to that the person who wants to break the rules "just to
finish" should be the one to either give up the time or quit the race.

JFT

  #55  
Old March 13th 04, 09:39 PM
levi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

In article , "Griss"
wrote:

"levi" wrote

I never said it was legal, did I? A better expression of what I meant
was that I can see no logical basis for disqualifying the technique.


OK. You originally said "Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for
disallowing diagonal-skate in a "classical" race" I understood this to mean
that you couldn't see why someone would not be allowed to use it in the
race, so my simple point: because it's against the rules.

But now I understand that what you intended to say is that you didn't see
any logical basis for putting it in the rules in the first place. Good
point.

If you start with the premise that it is worth while distinguishing between
the two techniques for competitive purposes (you may or may not agree), I
think the logical basis for disallowing that stuff in the rules is that it
is a relatively easy way to distinguish, in writing, between the two
techniques, and that it goes a long way in defining the "essence" of classic
skiing. After all, one is called skating (freestyle actually), so it makes
sense to me, logically, to eliminate skating-like motions (including
herringbone w/ glide) from classical style races. Even though skating has
been and always will be part of the recreational classic skier's repertiore,
it still makes sense for the purposes of competition.

I will be adding herringbone skate (aka diagonal skate) to my "classic"
technique bag of tricks - except, of course, in races. Should have

thought
of it years ago - shows you what blind adherence to meaningless rules will
do to your fun factor (see "snowboarding").


Hey, go for it! You're not breaking any new ground here. Nobody ever said
you couldn't or shouldn't. It never crossed my mind that you felt you had
to follow FIS classic ski race rules when recreational skiing, and for that
I apologise. You're right - that sort of blind adherance prevented you from
a lot of fun stuff you can do on skis. This is as silly as following rules
governing snowboard competition when out snowboarding for fun.

I suggest adding V1, V2, parallel turns, tele turns, "ballet" etc to your
bag of tricks.on striding (and skating) skis. I always have, when the
situation calls for it. Big deal, I'm not breaking new ground either. I was
taught, observed and used all sorts of skating on alpine and XC touring gear
from the time I learned alpine as a kid in the 60s, and took up XC touring
in the early 70s.

The one and only reason I ski is to have fun, and the only reason to follow
"rules" is if and when I enter some sort of event with rules (very rarely).


I think we're clear now, and in agreement - thanks for your patience.
  #57  
Old March 13th 04, 10:43 PM
Scott Elliot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

"Mitch Collinsworth" wrote in message
r.cornell.edu...

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Scott Elliot wrote:

Agreed. According to the laws of physics you could not turn without
applying force so you cannot turn without push. Step turn without pus

is
what FIS wrote, so the rules were obviously written by lawyers, not
scientists.

I believe the meaning is that you can't use push to accelerate in a step
turn where tracks are set. Where there are no set tracks, you can do a

step
turn with push so you should be able to get some acceleration for really
fast downhill sections.

The intent is apparently to keep people from effectively skating around

easy
curves in the trail, but still allow aggressive skiing on downhill

sections
where tracks have been lifted.


Still not sure I understand the rule. Is it saying that where there
is a set track you must not push with the edge of a gliding ski?
Or is there still some in-between situation I'm not understanding?

-Mitch


In my opinion it is a very subjective rule which makes it hard for officials
to make a call in some circumstances.

It had become very common in high calibre races for skiers to cut to the
inside of the track on most curves and do a sort of one sided skate turn,
both shortening the distance by taking the inside track and getting the
advantage of a faster skate type stride. FIS decided to stop this in
classic races.

Step turn is defined as a classic technique, but step turn with push is not
allowed where there is a set track. It was also suggested that hard
barriers such as V boards be put close to the inside of the track on curves
so that there would not be room to ski between the track and the edge of the
trail.

This rule if very hard for officials to judge so many FIS type courses will
be set so that there are no tracks on fast downhill curves. Where there is
no track, step turn with push is allowed, so effectively a skate type stride
is OK as long as the skate is always turning the ski into the curve, not out
of it.

If a skier comes out of a curve and is not aligned with the set tracks, most
officials will also allow a skate type stride or two in order to get back in
the track. Despite what some countries have advocated there is not set
number of skate strides that are allowed. It is a judgement call on the
part of the officials whether the strides are just to get into the tracks or
if an advantage is being gained by taking several strides when one or two
would be enough.

Generally, most officials would be looking to see whether skiers are trying
to get a speed advantage by doing step turns out of the track instead of
double poling or striding in the track. If there is a speed advantage, the
step turns probably are being done with push and should be called.

For the skier, there are also a few judgement calls to make. If you are not
sure whether you can stay in the tracks on a downhill curve, it may be
safest to get out of the tracks and do step turns. How aggressive can the
step turns be before they become illegal?

On a sharp turn on a flat section, the track may become worn and the ski
will slide out of the track on the outside. You will now have to do a step
turn to get back in the track. If you had stayed in the track you would
probably have done a double pole or kick-double pole. How aggressive can
you step back into the track be before it becomes illegal. What if the
tracks are starting to completely disintegrate and this happens all the way
around the curve? It may look like a skate turn, but that is how skiers
would have handled the curve for many years. At a recent NorAm race I
happened to be standing next to a Technical Delegate and asked him about
this where skiers were making a sharp curve around the back of the stadium.
He called over another TD and discussed the situation. They decided that
technically what most skiers were doing was not in accordance with the
"without push" rule, but practically it was the only efficient way to race
around the curve and would not be called unless anyone purposely abused the
curve.

Officials don't like to make judgement calls like this so the easiest
solution is to lift tracks on downhill curves and not start them again until
a short distance after the curve so that skiers have a chance to align
themselves before the tracks start.


  #58  
Old March 14th 04, 03:59 AM
Mitch Collinsworth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races


On Sat, 13 Mar 2004, Jeff Potter wrote:

Mitch Collinsworth wrote:

I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks,
Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race
from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was
doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either,
but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack
by adopting it.


I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone
know names for these?


Sorry, I lied. The woody clip is at about 9:40 into the 2nd avi,
Vasaloppet02.avi. Not very long but a fun peek into history.

-Mitch




  #59  
Old March 15th 04, 09:42 AM
Anders Lustig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Skating in citizen classic races

Jeff Potter wrote in message ...

I watched a little bit of this year's Vasaloppet video today (thanks,
Janne!) and somewhere in the first avi there's a clip from a race
from years ago in the wooden ski era. Everyone in the clip was
doing a kick-kick-double-pole. That wouldn't be illegal now, either,
but I don't think you'll find yourself moving up through the pack
by adopting it.


I'll download that part! I like the oldstyle variety of moves. Anyone
know names for these?


Two-kicked DP? (In a direct translation from Finnish,
the above would be: "two-kicked even-push".)

There was also a three-and a four-phased diagonal
technique, which involved complicated acrobatics with
the pole you wouldn´t plant when you would in the
normal two-phased technique.

All of these techniques are largely obsolate now when
the tracks are built like motorways and there´s much
less need ro time and adjust your technique, when glide
is very seldom insufficient for simple DP which is now
the most energy-efficient technique and there´s no
urgency to use a technique that would bring a short
respite from normal diagonal technique.


It's very pretty and totally a part of good ski RHYTHM.


I was taught skiing by old folks and I used to be able
to at least demonstrate those techniques, but now I´m
afraid I can only produce something that my coaches would
frown upon and that has very little of the grace they
had.


Anders
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Skating and bonking Ilene Carpenter Nordic Skiing 54 February 20th 04 08:27 AM
skating on classic ski Sebastian Nordic Skiing 4 January 14th 04 07:03 PM
Lower leg injuries in classic skiing Everett Nordic Skiing 6 December 13th 03 03:43 AM
Mpeg Races: Kuusamo Janne G Nordic Skiing 0 December 2nd 03 03:53 PM
glide: skating vs. traditional??? Ken Roberts Nordic Skiing 4 August 22nd 03 11:57 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.