Skating in citizen classic races

What I meant is, that it doesn't hurt me as much as it "should " hurt them
if they cheat.
I'm doing the "right thing", so why should I care? No one is getting hurt by
their cheating except themselves- that is if they feel anything bad about
doing what they are doing. Actually I sort of felt sorry for them that they
had to resort to skating in order to get up the hill. Now if they might win
a prize then it's a different story.

Who remembers one of the leaders of 2004 Marcialonga skating up a slight
hill after going under a bridge at the 65 km mark? The TV commentator said
that the skier would never be DQ'd so far into the race. Couldn't figure
that out. He was like in first or second place. He probably gained nothing
from skating, but he did skate. It was brazen, in my opinion.

And as long as we are getting near the abyss, I'll calmly take the plunge. I
really think that classic is far more interesting to do, and certainly to
watch, and is more "pure". I usually have to psych myself up to do a skating
race or workout. I find it less stimulating than classic. And I do see that
skating is far more easier for "athletes that are not skiers" to use to get
around with than classical. For that reason it may be a good thing for
skiing. Eventually, these folks hopefully will learn how to ski. But frankly
I don't see that conversion very often. Instead, the skaters skate when
conditions really call for classic, and they mess up the tracks. On the
other hand. there are days that classical isn't so hot, and skating is
excellent.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY


"Dell Todd" wrote in message
om...
"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message
.. .

When I see this at first I am angry, but then I don't care. Whats there
to
be upset about? These folks aren't winning any pizes. Unless of course
they
are planning to vie for the Johann Muhlegg cheater award in the next
annual
Gunde Svan RSN award.

Gary Jacosbon
Rosendale, NY

Gary,

Let me see if I understand you correctly; it is OK to cheat (break the
rules) if are not on the podium.

Hm ?

Dell

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, jim farrell wrote:

I love skiing both techniques as well, but in DP situations, i think
brute force overcomes technique just as it CAN in skate races.

Hmm... Brute force is certainly helpful, but after recently watching
the video of the 2003 Vasaloppet I'd have to argue that Aukland had far
and away the greatest brute force but still "lost" the race to Sward
who in bike racing language was a wheel sucking maggot. He would't even
take a pull when Aukland attacked and put a gap on him and Rezac in the
last few k's, but sat on Rezak while he closed the gap back to Aukland.
Sward won the race but exhibited the *least* amount of actual brute
force (of the 3) in a DP contest.

On the subject of technique, a "balanced" race course requires contestants
to have mastered all the various techniques. For classic that's striding,
KDP, herringbone, and DP, plus good skills on turns and curves. On a good
course you have to be good at everything to win. But some courses are not
so well balanced.

Vasaloppet is a classic (in the historic sense) course, but it's
certainly not balanced. And from reading about them here it sounds like
there are a lot of "too flat" courses in some areas of the US, too.

I remember a classic race I went to once that was unbalanced in the
opposite direction. There was a snow shortage and the organizers had to
cut it back to a small loop that was no more than 1.5 or 2 km that we
raced around (interval start in batches) several times. After one trip
around the course to check it out I went back to my car and pulled out
a pair of skating skis, klistered them up under foot, and raced on those!
I placed far better in this race than I typically did for classic, which
was not my specialty.

Why? This short little loop was a steep uphill that had to be
herringboned, followed by a hair-raising descent with a sharp corner or
two, and then a short run-in back onto the herringbone hill. It worked
out to something like 40% herringbone, 50% downhill hang-on-for-your-life,
and 10% stride or DP whichever works for you. I chose the skating skis
and boots for their superior control on the downhill. This enabled me to
a) not crash, which many folks did at least once, and b) carry as much
momentum as possible into the flat-ish section before the hill. My
klister ended up not really working so I mostly had to DP the run-in
which was just enough uphill to make me lose some time there, but I more
than made up for it with shorter skis for the herringbone run-up and
better control on the downhill.

-Mitch

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
My observation from the Masters World Cup 30K Classic in Quebec a couple
of
years ago is that by far the biggest skating "problem" in high-level
Classic
racing is the _curves_.

Any section of the course that looked sorta like a curve was a de facto
"skating zone".

Is that legal?

A couple of year ago it was legal. Step turn has always been a valid
technique in classic technique. Therefore you could get out of the tracks
and make steps that moved you into a tangent of the curve. This is sort of
a one sided skate where you are skating into the curve only, but not making
any stride that moved the ski out of the curve.

The rule has recently been changed that step turn without push is allowable
anywhere so you can step out of the track and do step turns any time you
want. Since you cannot push, this is not very effective skating technique.
On downhill curves where there are no set tracks, step turn with push is
still an allowable technique. This allows good skiers to do really
screaming downhills.

From a race organizer's standpoint, you don't want to disqualify skiers if
you can avoid it, so there is now a tendency to not set track on downhill
curves where step turn with push would be and advantage. This has always
been part of classic technique, well before general skating was popular so I
don't see anything wrong with it. Fast downhills are fun to do, fun to
watch and great places to see crashes.

Scott

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Scott Elliot wrote:

The rule has recently been changed that step turn without push is allowable
anywhere so you can step out of the track and do step turns any time you
want. Since you cannot push, this is not very effective skating technique.

Huh? What is a turn without push? It doesn't make sense.

-Mitch

In article , "Griss"
wrote:

"levi" wrote

Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for disallowing diagonal-skate
in a "classical" race.

Except for the fact it's not classical technique, and cheating vis a vis
real classical technique, no, there is no basis 8-)

First, define "real classical technique". Second, explain how diagonal skate
differs from herringbone - with a glide phase.

I'm also holding the unscientific opinion that the diagonal skate is not
faster than diagonal striding over the general course.

"levi" wrote in message
...
In article , "Griss"
wrote:

"levi" wrote

Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for disallowing
diagonal-skate
in a "classical" race.

Except for the fact it's not classical technique, and cheating vis a
vis
real classical technique, no, there is no basis 8-)

First, define "real classical technique". Second, explain how diagonal
skate
differs from herringbone - with a glide phase.

First:
"Classical technique includes the diagonal techniques, the double poling
techniques, herringbone techniques without a gliding phase, downhill
techniques and turning techniques. Single or double-skating is not al-lowed.
Turning techniques comprise steps and pushes in order to change
directions."

If you don't know what "real classical technique" is or "can find no basis
for disallowing diagonal skate in a classic race," then you're just not
familiar with the techniqe. (you'll find this on the FIS website, but it's
in almost all the racing guidelines you'll come across and is common
knowledge in my experience).
Second: I have no idea if the two terms you are using - herrinbone with
glide phase and diagonal skate are the same or different, but it's
irrelevant because neither meet the rules.

I'm also holding the unscientific opinion that the diagonal skate is not
faster than diagonal striding over the general course.

Interesting point; probably not true, imho. But again, irrelevant, since
it's against the rules one agrees to when entering a classic event. I don't
mean to be argumentative, but that's just the way it is.


Grissy

"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message ...
What I meant is, that it doesn't hurt me as much as it "should " hurt them
if they cheat.

OK - still, let's define a standard & apply it & live with the
consequences (no glide = stop to rewax, or remove bib & take it on
in).

I'm doing the "right thing", so why should I care? No one is getting hurt by
their cheating except themselves- that is if they feel anything bad about
doing what they are doing. Actually I sort of felt sorry for them that they
had to resort to skating in order to get up the hill. Now if they might win
a prize then it's a different story.

We are racing - not touring. We are there, at least in part, for
results. If this was a Granola Tour, who would care ? If this is a
race where we watch the weather for a week in order to nail the glide
wax & kick wax, apply the expensive fluoros, train in a focused manner
year round for it, pay travel costs to the race, we have a lot
invested. The reason "Why we care" is we want to do as well as we can
on a given day, and have our level of prepearation reflect that as
much as possible. On a fair & level playing field. Or the race is
POINTLESS.


Who remembers one of the leaders of 2004 Marcialonga skating up a slight
hill after going under a bridge at the 65 km mark? The TV commentator said
that the skier would never be DQ'd so far into the race. Couldn't figure
that out. He was like in first or second place. He probably gained nothing
from skating, but he did skate. It was brazen, in my opinion.

I think that was a turn skate, if I recall correctly. And there
appears to be newish rules against it. Not sure why it makes a
difference if you skate @ 65km or 5km. Anyway, this discussion isn't
about "SKating Nazis." It's about flagrant & repeated fouls.

And as long as we are getting near the abyss, I'll calmly take the plunge. I
really think that classic is far more interesting to do, and certainly to
watch, and is more "pure". I usually have to psych myself up to do a skating
race or workout. I find it less stimulating than classic. And I do see that
skating is far more easier for "athletes that are not skiers" to use to get
around with than classical. For that reason it may be a good thing for
skiing. Eventually, these folks hopefully will learn how to ski. But frankly
I don't see that conversion very often. Instead, the skaters skate when
conditions really call for classic, and they mess up the tracks. On the
other hand. there are days that classical isn't so hot, and skating is
excellent.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

My woodies got me into ski racing. I quickly saw the future with those
plastic skis everyone else had. On a perfect day the wood is good, but
the plastic skis are always better on a race course. So I got some
plastic skating skis. And then I got more of them. And then I got some
plastic striding skis. Seems I figured out how to skate pretty
quickly, and I was a way better skater than a strider, but now I am
learning how to stride too, and getting much better results at that as
well. I consider striding quite a challenge to say the least. Next
year my goal (here we go in front of the entire world !) is to stride
the Noquemanon 50k. That would be my first 50k CL race, after doing
about 10 skate 50's. After this past weekends Black & Blue Mountain
30k, I feel one step closer. I really want to develop a level of
mastery with the classic to round it all out as a complete ski racer.
There are several very fast Michigan Cup FS ski racers who don't even
own the CL gear !

Maybe the essence of classic is that the ski stops to apply power.

Classic has a lot of glide. It just doesn't have glide WHILE powering the ski.
That's what skating offers.

So diag skate LOOKS like herringbone but the kicking foot is GLIDING not stopped
so it's skating not classic.

Easy?

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
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In Michigan we also have team points and rivalry and quite a few teams. If cheaters bump people from even medium placing to
somewhat worse it hurts the overall team season results.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more! ...
... offering Vordenberg's XC ski tales in "Momentum"! ...
... "The Recumbent Bicycle": the only book about these bikes! ...
... Rudloe's "Potluck": true-life story of workingclass smuggling! ...
... with radical novels coming up via LiteraryRevolution.com! ...
... music! ... articles! ... travel forums! ... WOW! 800-763-6923

I was always taught that it is discourteous to skate
on classic course once the course has been groomed for
the race, whether or not you are a competitor and
whether or not the course is a "closed" course.
Usually in a classic course there is more than one set
of tracks set plus they are set to "best line" and
therefore skating ruins the tracks for the race. Does
no one else feel this way? Of course there are always
inadvertent violations.

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