suggestions for my technique on video

wrote:

the teacher said "The bike goes where the biker looks".
. . . Perhaps looking ahead could help to go forward.

I worked on doing that for lots of time in my V1 skate up many hills
yesterday -- i.e. looking in the direction of my overall direction of
forward motion, instead of my current leg-push or pole-push. I found it
a bit tricky to move my head differently from my torso + shoulders. As
I kept working on it I got much better at it on moderate hills, though
I tended to lose it on steep hills. My neck felt a little tired
sometimes.

This morning I looked at some videos of Word Cup racers doing V1 skate
up a hill, and here's what I saw:
(1) before the pole push, they duck their head down and look toward the
side of the pole push.
(2) during the second half of the pole push and thru its finish, they
raise their head and return it to look straight in the overall
direction of forward motion.

I think it's a better idea in V1 ("offset") skate to deliberately aim
my pole-push diagonally toward the side, in the direction the ski is
aimed -- not in the direction of overall forward motion. Looks to me
like the elite racers help get that diagonal-sideways aim of their pole
push in V1 by also turning their head to the side so it's looking in
the same direction they are trying to aim their pole-push. (and wasn't
it your suggestion, Laurent, to aim the pole-push in the direction of
the gliding ski?)

So maybe cross-country skiing is different from bicycling and downhill
skiing, and sometimes it's better to
look where you're poling instead of looking where you're going?

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:

I worked on doing that for lots of time in my V1 skate up many hills
yesterday -- i.e. looking in the direction of my overall direction of
forward motion, instead of my current leg-push or pole-push. I found it
a bit tricky to move my head differently from my torso + shoulders. As
I kept working on it I got much better at it on moderate hills, though
I tended to lose it on steep hills. My neck felt a little tired
sometimes.

I can't really picture what you're saying, but, the way I was taught,
you don't move your head around. YOu don't arch or crane your neck You
simply keep your neck and torso inthe relaxed "c" shape and look up the
hill, not at your skis or poles. You look uphill from the top half of
your eyes, I see my eyebrows when I do it. My nose is pointing
forward, but somewhat down because of the relaxed C shape in the torso
and neck. If I looked the same direction as my nose, I'd be looking
just forward of my skis, or at the tips. But the eyes are looking up,
rotated upward in the sockets. What I'm striving for (my mental image):
I'm not bobbing my head, Upper body motion is in the arms and the abs,
not the neck. This really (I mean really) helps get those hips forward
and the ski gliding up the hill. Looking down tends to get the butt
back in the toilet seat position.

So maybe cross-country skiing is different from bicycling and downhill
skiing, and sometimes it's better to
look where you're poling instead of looking where you're going?

I guess there's always a first. But that would be against what I've
been taught by every professional instructor I've had including former
US Olympians, national-level coaches and recently JD Dowling who is a
pretty decent and well respected coach. They all really emphasised the
looking up hill from a relaxed torso and neck. When I find my self
getting tired or such, if I concentrate on that, it brings my upward
torso motion up and forward, bringing my hips forward, moving the
gliding ski up the hill noticably more each push.

Camilo wrote
... that would be against what I've been taught by
every professional instructor I've had including former
US Olympians, national-level coaches . . .
They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a
relaxed torso and neck.

The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is
very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look
for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would
overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches).

There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly
simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look
good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks
good in a special demo video clip.

But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and
they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches
watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they
teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and
aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power
in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows"
that, even if their conscious mind does not.

So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national
coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they
actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the
price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack.

Ken

For a look at head motion in ski skating at the Olympic level, how
about try going to this page:
http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436
and on the right side click on both of those two videos.

The upper video has several segments of Stefania Belmondo doing V1
skate up a hill. So ... Does she or doesn't she? Is her head facing
forward the whole time, or is it turning to the side on every pole
push?

The lower video is the 15km Free at Soldier Hollow in 2002. Starting at
:30 seconds is a segment of Belmondo doing V1 skate straight in the
camera. So ... Does she or doesn't she? Then you can see the finish of
the race.

There used to be a couple of video clips on the web of Carl Swenson
doing V1 skate, and he clearly turned his head toward his poling side
on each pole-push in V1 -- despite whatever some USA "professional
instructors" and "national-level coaches" might be teaching as the
"correct" theory of head motion in courses.

Ken

On 20 Jan 2007 17:15:23 -0800, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

Camilo wrote
... that would be against what I've been taught by
every professional instructor I've had including former
US Olympians, national-level coaches . . .
They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a
relaxed torso and neck.

The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is
very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look
for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would
overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches).

There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly
simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look
good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks
good in a special demo video clip.

But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and
they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches
watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they
teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and
aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power
in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows"
that, even if their conscious mind does not.

So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national
coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they
actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the
price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack.

No one's head is perfectly still. But your head is moving a huge
amount in many of those pictures.

Most importantly, I've never seen a high level skier moving their head
as much as you do. I don't understand the physics, but the practice
is that at a high level of the sport it's not done.

If you have some true rationale of why it's better to move your head,
then maybe it is. But in the absense of that, just saying the other
people can't explain why it shouldn't be done is insufficient -- what
is done by the best people is likely to be better.
--
JT
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On 20 Jan 2007 18:10:55 -0800, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436

I'm having trouble getting those videos to play, but watched her in
those Olympics and recently watched her skating in the Lahti World
Championships, and your head is moving MUCH more than hers.
--
JT
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Try it with IE7 (Opera didn't work). Her torso is turning ski to ski
as a result of poling, push off and consequent shifting weight. The
head is go along for the ride with the torso, as it should. Note also
(other discussion) that she's not looking at the top of the hill,
though probably spotting it or well up the trail as her eyes come across
to the off side ski. It's a common mistake in learning to confuse cause
(weight shift from poling and ski to ski movement) with effect (torso
and head face move ski to ski), such that the skier actively turns the
torso or head because they think this part of the way to create ski to
ski movement.

rm

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On 20 Jan 2007 18:10:55 -0800, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/p...PAR_I_ID=76436

I'm having trouble getting those videos to play, but watched her in
those Olympics and recently watched her skating in the Lahti World
Championships, and your head is moving MUCH more than hers.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
I've never seen a high level skier moving their head
as much as you do. I don't understand the physics,
but the practice is that at a high level of the sport it's not done.

Thanks for the observation -- I'll try to move my head less (and
differently).

I'm not in any way suggesting that _my_ head motion is any sort of
model of optimal physics or sound racing style.

I am saying that lots of elite racers have _some_ head motion -- of a
fairly consistent style which I described -- a motion which is both
less than mine and different than mine. But it's not just looking
straight ahead up the hill.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Camilo wrote
... that would be against what I've been taught by
every professional instructor I've had including former
US Olympians, national-level coaches . . .
They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a
relaxed torso and neck.

The physics and biomechanics of all the different moves of V1 skate is
very complicated, so it's not surprising that successful coaches look
for simplified advice about it. Acknowledging the full complexity would
overwhelm the skiers (and most of the coaches).

There's lots of concepts that coaches teach which are appealingly
simple, and they work as helpful learning drills, and the coaches look
good demonstrating the concept in front of you, and the concept looks
good in a special demo video clip.

But when they're trying to really go fast in an actual race -- and
they're not thinking about students or "politically correct" coaches
watching -- maybe they skate V1 up a hill different from what they
teach in class. Because turning the head somewhat toward the side and
aiming the pole push to the side is what delivers the most total power
in V1 skate, and their unconscious neuromuscular control center "knows"
that, even if their conscious mind does not.

So how about providing a link to a video clip of one of those national
coaches skating V1 up a hill in a real race -- and let's see if they
actually keep looking straight up the hill the whole time -- when the
price of political correctness is getting dropped by the pack.

Ken

OK, whatever you say. I'll listen to a guy on the internet who does
not demonstrate excellent technique rather than the very esteemed
coaches I've been fortunate enough to be taught by, and the teaching
was with personal observation, direct demonstration, breaking my
movements into small pieces to work on. I guess analysis by a
physicist over a usenet discussion group is much better. Sorry.

Camilo wrote
... former US Olympians, national-level coaches . . .
They all really emphasised the looking up hill from a
relaxed torso and neck.

Kikkan Randall in the 2007 World Cup Rybinsk Sprint Final:
http://www.kikkan.com/russiasprnt_video.html

Lots of uphill V1 skate in the segment from time 1:40 - 2:05.
so which is it:
Neck relaxed and looking up the hill the whole time? or
Ducking her head quickly off to her poling-side on each V1 pole-push?
. (and what about the other skiers doing V1 in that segment?)

Whatever various USA coaches may teach and snow in nice courses and demos,
seems like when the fastest USA skiers like Kikkan Randall and Carl Swenson
get to the World Cup level, they put aside the simplistic teachings and
instead do what it takes to really compete.

Ken