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#21
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Hi J,
Glide and grip is all about having the proper ski for the proper person. Say you weigh 100lbs. Your ski be it wider or not is flat under your foot(grip zone) at 120lbs the skis are no good for you as it would take 120% of your total weight yust to get grip.The ideal ski for a person with 100lbs weight is one that is flat at 75lbs. This is because on every step you have to flatten the ski to get grip. Sure a lightweight person could get more skibase in the snow if they get a wider ski. This has nothing to do with glide or grip. A wider ski does not glide faster or grip better if the skis have not been selected properly. The optimum is to have your skis selected by a competent ski shop. RW |
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#22
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RW,
Thanks for that info! I had figured out that part already, although I didn't know those percentages yet. I meant to wonder, how a significantly wider ski with the same (correct) flex properties for the athlete's weight would compare for grip and glide. All the same dimensions, just 10-20% wider, and as said perhaps a bit thinner if that works out that way to accomplish the correct pre-tension. The fact that the answer is not readily available gives me the impression that perhaps this is not investigated often, at least in recent times. Would two athletes, each 60kg and 100kg, both 1m85, be recommended the same ski length, shape and width, just different tension? Joseph already expressed that he notices he has a definate edges over lightweights when it comes to gliding downhills, easily explained by weight/frontal surface ratio as air resistance is a big factor there. I'd love to know if he could benefit from wider or even narrower ski's for grip, and if it would cost him (fast and slow) glide or actually improve that further. J "rw" schreef in bericht oups.com... Hi J, Glide and grip is all about having the proper ski for the proper person. Say you weigh 100lbs. Your ski be it wider or not is flat under your foot(grip zone) at 120lbs the skis are no good for you as it would take 120% of your total weight yust to get grip.The ideal ski for a person with 100lbs weight is one that is flat at 75lbs. This is because on every step you have to flatten the ski to get grip. Sure a lightweight person could get more skibase in the snow if they get a wider ski. This has nothing to do with glide or grip. A wider ski does not glide faster or grip better if the skis have not been selected properly. The optimum is to have your skis selected by a competent ski shop. RW |
#23
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#24
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It is important to note that Jan is talking about wider or narrow skis
outside of the range of what is commercially available for normal fitting. He's talking about what is optimal in a theoretical sense, not what one should actually be looking for to buy today. Do I understand you correctly, Jan? Joseph Jan Gerrit Klok wrote: RW, Thanks for that info! I had figured out that part already, although I didn't know those percentages yet. I meant to wonder, how a significantly wider ski with the same (correct) flex properties for the athlete's weight would compare for grip and glide. All the same dimensions, just 10-20% wider, and as said perhaps a bit thinner if that works out that way to accomplish the correct pre-tension. The fact that the answer is not readily available gives me the impression that perhaps this is not investigated often, at least in recent times. Would two athletes, each 60kg and 100kg, both 1m85, be recommended the same ski length, shape and width, just different tension? Joseph already expressed that he notices he has a definate edges over lightweights when it comes to gliding downhills, easily explained by weight/frontal surface ratio as air resistance is a big factor there. I'd love to know if he could benefit from wider or even narrower ski's for grip, and if it would cost him (fast and slow) glide or actually improve that further. J "rw" schreef in bericht oups.com... Hi J, Glide and grip is all about having the proper ski for the proper person. Say you weigh 100lbs. Your ski be it wider or not is flat under your foot(grip zone) at 120lbs the skis are no good for you as it would take 120% of your total weight yust to get grip.The ideal ski for a person with 100lbs weight is one that is flat at 75lbs. This is because on every step you have to flatten the ski to get grip. Sure a lightweight person could get more skibase in the snow if they get a wider ski. This has nothing to do with glide or grip. A wider ski does not glide faster or grip better if the skis have not been selected properly. The optimum is to have your skis selected by a competent ski shop. RW |
#25
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#26
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Anders wrote: wrote: I have noticed that effect. When I am able to keep some speed and momentum, I have better grip. When I am slower (due to low power) such that I have to re-accelerate myself with each stride, the depand for grip is greater and sometimes I slip. I may be right or (as must be more likely) I may be wrong, but when you are slower, isn't your glide/glide phase shorter - and therefore you are more prone to be late for your kick, which in turn means that the grip you get cannot be as great as it is when your get the timing and the weight distribution right. Sounds reasonable. In other words, you don't need a greater grip on a climb than on the flat (or a less steep climb), it is simply that the effect of poor grip is more dramatic there. Yes, but I was thinking of what happens on the same hill at different speeds. On some hills if I go fast I can be on-and-off each ski quickly and my weight transfer and down-force momentum keeps the grip solid. But if I take the same hill slower, I think my down-force momentum "wears off" and I lose grip because each stride is taking too long, not necessarily that the kick is coming at the wront instant. Did that make sense? Joseph |
#27
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Thanks for helping me clarify Joseph, indeed.
As you must have encountered buying your 195mm cycling cranks, you didn't have much choice, while they suit you fine, better than any of the 99.9% of crank offerings, yet your build is nothing out of the ordinary. Height/Weight, you're actually super close to average, had you not been an athlete. My experience from cycling is that the best thing to ride, is sometimes not even for sale, while relatively easy to craft. My own passion in MTB'ing is 29" wheels. Only came into existence in '99, while the MTB was invested in the mid-70's. They used kid's bike tires as those happened to exist with a wide casing, while before that all adults rode 28" for all performance disciplines. Just no wider 28" tires existed. MTB caught on (world-wide sports revolution, really), and 26" is what everyone rode for cross-country cycling ever since. "No-one" ever questioned the 26" standard, and who did, was silenced. The initial cost of making a new tire (mold) of $5-10k was never coughed up, in a quarter century of almost unlimited sales success with sporting goods costing $600+ average. Now, 7 years after the introduction of 29" wheels, nearly everyone that has tried them, is an instant convert. I won't bore you with the advantages they bring, but the forum I moderate on mtbr.com is stuffed with testimonials. I wonder whether ski width, especially for clydesdale athletes, could take some of their disadvantages away. As not all cyclists ranging from 1m40 to 2m10 can't find their optimum in 175mm cranks, or 26" tires, even tire width, I wonder how that translates to skiing. -is there an optimal width for classic skiing grip? -is there an optimal width for gliding, be it classical or skating? Are the above weight-unrelated, and coming down to the same width? Not meaning to bash on centuries of skiing technology per se, just trying to understand why things are the way they are. At least in cycling I know for a fact that the business were more into keeping up a hype than to offer customers the best cranks or wheelsize they could. Do two top-fit skiers, one 1m80/60kg, and one 1m80/100kg get the same width skis? If so, why? What width should I look for with my 1m94/82kg, or really just focus on length and tension? schreef in bericht ups.com... It is important to note that Jan is talking about wider or narrow skis outside of the range of what is commercially available for normal fitting. He's talking about what is optimal in a theoretical sense, not what one should actually be looking for to buy today. Do I understand you correctly, Jan? Joseph Jan Gerrit Klok wrote: RW, Thanks for that info! I had figured out that part already, although I didn't know those percentages yet. I meant to wonder, how a significantly wider ski with the same (correct) flex properties for the athlete's weight would compare for grip and glide. All the same dimensions, just 10-20% wider, and as said perhaps a bit thinner if that works out that way to accomplish the correct pre-tension. The fact that the answer is not readily available gives me the impression that perhaps this is not investigated often, at least in recent times. Would two athletes, each 60kg and 100kg, both 1m85, be recommended the same ski length, shape and width, just different tension? Joseph already expressed that he notices he has a definate edges over lightweights when it comes to gliding downhills, easily explained by weight/frontal surface ratio as air resistance is a big factor there. I'd love to know if he could benefit from wider or even narrower ski's for grip, and if it would cost him (fast and slow) glide or actually improve that further. J "rw" schreef in bericht oups.com... Hi J, Glide and grip is all about having the proper ski for the proper person. Say you weigh 100lbs. Your ski be it wider or not is flat under your foot(grip zone) at 120lbs the skis are no good for you as it would take 120% of your total weight yust to get grip.The ideal ski for a person with 100lbs weight is one that is flat at 75lbs. This is because on every step you have to flatten the ski to get grip. Sure a lightweight person could get more skibase in the snow if they get a wider ski. This has nothing to do with glide or grip. A wider ski does not glide faster or grip better if the skis have not been selected properly. The optimum is to have your skis selected by a competent ski shop. RW |
#28
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J
A skier of 60kg should never ski on a ski which is closed at 100kg and visa versa. The skier of 60kg: And here is the kicker::::::: if is a super athlete and a excellent classic skier.( see now we have to factor in the persons skiing ability!!!!!) Should buy a ski that closes at 100% of his body weight. A skier like Joseph who admitted he is not an expert in classic technique. Should buy a ski that closes at 50kg or even less. So when Joseph climbs or when he gets tiered he will still be able to close the ski and have excellent grip. Now to answer your question (Which is not real world) For Joseph of course at 100kg he will be faster on the downhills then any body else because he has more weight behind him. Yes he could get a wider ski and have more surface for glide and grip with the same length ski. The wisdom is more base more glide more grip. Now this is if the skis have excactly the flex for him. (His WEIGHT his SKIING ABILITY = SKI FLEX 100kg - 25%= 75kg for a intermediate skier) I hope this was helpful rw |
#29
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Anders,
I do not work with a deflection micrometer so I can only guess. But it looks like 1. The thing with left and right ski is probably just a guide not to be too concerned about. There is no left and right ski in today's world. 2. of course he will have a short grip zone for klisters. No rocket science there either. One applies Klister wax just under the foot. (heel to toe) no more or the ski will have no glide. 3. the numbers. 0mm = 100% of bodyweight on ski closed 1.5mm = ? 80% of body weight on uphills 2.0mm = ? 70% of body weight grip when he is tiered ask him about the numbers I have no clue rw |
#30
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Hey guys - Here's a link to a flex sheet from my website which may
clarify some of those mysterious numbers that get put on the side of a ski: http://www.engineeredtuning.net/ClassicFlex.pdf As for a the possibilities of better grip from a wider ski - I would suggest that the overwhelming factor determining grip is the amount of dowforce the skier can apply through the wax. Nobody - not even the best in the world ski on classic ski that closes at 100% of body weight. I just brought all of Kris and Justin Freeman's skis home from Spring Series. There are a few pairs I haven't seen before and I'll take a look at them. But the stiffest pairs those guys carry close (to 0.2mm residual camber under the load - "closed" is not an absolute as the error in measurement would go sky-high) at something like 67% or 68% of body weight. Anyway - I don't think that a wider ski would help grip in the least - at least not before it completely killed the handling characteristics and running speed of the ski. A while back in the thread I think somebody mentioned that it's almost impossible to find skis stiff enough for a 100kg guy. That's not true. There are plenty of very stiff skis out there. I've got half a dozen pairs of used sis in my shop which are too stiff for most guys so they're just sitting here collecting dust. The big problem with skis for a guy that size is finding a pair that is supple - something that can keep the wax clear of the snow, but then flattens easily and loads the wax pocket well. Just my two cents... Zach |
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