If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the
subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each. We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT, a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing both riding and skiing competitively. Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One . Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines? My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from when I was 25% lighter than I am now. One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race vs a similar length ski race. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
Pain is pain no matter who dishes it out.
If you can make wave 1 at the Birkie, you might not be far off being a Cat 2 roadie. I don't think one is easier than the other ... except for the crashing. :^] jw milwaukee |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
Skiing is much easier! Actually, I think it depends on the pack you're
racing with in bike racing. The WISPORT citizen bike race series is a lot easier than the USCF racing in Minnesota and likely everywhere. First, there are a lot more bike racers than ski racers. So the numbers get you pretty good on the bike. I've had some very tough ski races over the years like the Noquemanon this season where I had way too much kick wax and had a very slow race. If you've been skiing for a long time, you get the benefits of better technique and gliding, knowledge of when to go and when to take it easier, superior downhill cornering and balance etc. I beat tons of guys skiing who likely have better aerobic capacity than me. My technique and ski knowledge is just better from years of doing the sport. In bike racing though, weaknesses are more easily exposed. If you can hammer, you're going to do well. You might have to learn the proper gear to be in when climing a hill, but that is a short learning curve. Biking can be pretty safe when you get dropped by the pack... I'd say mountain bike racing is more like ski racing because of single track technique, pacing on the climbs, skill at descending etc. Road bike racing is all about strength. The way to get better is to go out and ride tons of miles. I know this guy I bike with by chance once in a while. I hook up with him when I'm on my after work ride and he's on his commute home. The guy rides 25 miles to work in the morning and 25 miles home in the afternoon. That's 50 miles every work day. How do you compete against guys like that? Most of the fast bike racers around here go on 70-80 mile training rides a couple of times per week. I'll get in 60+ once every other Saturday or Sunday around here in the summer. I do think racing makes you better though. I basically did a 26 mile time trial yesterday. That can't be too bad for training... Jay Tegeder "It's not how fast you go, it's how many fast people you know!" JT "Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. . I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each. We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT, a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing both riding and skiing competitively. Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One . Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines? My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from when I was 25% lighter than I am now. One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race vs a similar length ski race. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
Jay,
I take humble exception to skiing being easier! Coming from a bike racing background, bike racing is a lot easier:-) (maybe there's a clue there). It isn't just a matter of miles. You've got to have a strong 'base', but being able to respond to changes in speed, accelerate, and knowing *when* to power up are at least as important. With your skiing base and results, it isn't a matter of base. If you don't have the time to put in 300mi a week, look at your max distance. If your longest race isn't more than 45 miles, don't waste your time doing lots of 50-60 mile races unless you are blowing up 5mi from the finish. Instead, concentrate on shorter rides with a pace that has significant sections at race pace. Also, intervals and sprints should be a part of your workout every week. I used to do hour-long motorpace sessions once a week at 35 or so just to get comfortable riding at that pace - does wonders when things string out at 30MPH and your tongue is hanging out. Throwing in a hard effort 2 laps of Afton once every week or so will set you up pretty well for almost anything MN or WI can throw at you as a 3/4/5 master. My old 'weekly' training cycle as a Cat3: Mon - recover - spin 60-90 min, 42x17 Tues - 1hr warmup, 10x200m sprints, 30min cooldown Wed - 2.5-3hr ride w/hills Thurs - Intervals Fri - recovery spin - 60 min Sat - race or 3hr@80% effort (if crit, 2hrs ride after) Sun - race or 4hr@race effort (ditto Saturday) The week of a time trial, I motorpaced Tuesday and try to ride the course or a reasonable facsimile on Wed. Thursday became 1.5x the TT distance at 80%, and Friday a test ride on the TT setup and a lazy spin. FITW, Marsh Jay Tegeder wrote: Skiing is much easier! Actually, I think it depends on the pack you're racing with in bike racing. The WISPORT citizen bike race series is a lot easier than the USCF racing in Minnesota and likely everywhere. First, there are a lot more bike racers than ski racers. So the numbers get you pretty good on the bike. I've had some very tough ski races over the years like the Noquemanon this season where I had way too much kick wax and had a very slow race. If you've been skiing for a long time, you get the benefits of better technique and gliding, knowledge of when to go and when to take it easier, superior downhill cornering and balance etc. I beat tons of guys skiing who likely have better aerobic capacity than me. My technique and ski knowledge is just better from years of doing the sport. In bike racing though, weaknesses are more easily exposed. If you can hammer, you're going to do well. You might have to learn the proper gear to be in when climing a hill, but that is a short learning curve. Biking can be pretty safe when you get dropped by the pack... I'd say mountain bike racing is more like ski racing because of single track technique, pacing on the climbs, skill at descending etc. Road bike racing is all about strength. The way to get better is to go out and ride tons of miles. I know this guy I bike with by chance once in a while. I hook up with him when I'm on my after work ride and he's on his commute home. The guy rides 25 miles to work in the morning and 25 miles home in the afternoon. That's 50 miles every work day. How do you compete against guys like that? Most of the fast bike racers around here go on 70-80 mile training rides a couple of times per week. I'll get in 60+ once every other Saturday or Sunday around here in the summer. I do think racing makes you better though. I basically did a 26 mile time trial yesterday. That can't be too bad for training... Jay Tegeder "It's not how fast you go, it's how many fast people you know!" JT "Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. . I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each. We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT, a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing both riding and skiing competitively. Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One . Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines? My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from when I was 25% lighter than I am now. One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race vs a similar length ski race. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
Which is easier. That's a good one.
Marsh says biking is easier. I know a top bike racer who also says biking is easier. I used to do pretty good in Cat 2/3 events and in ski events and I'd say that bike racing is a much more intense pain with much more of it. You can keep heaping it on and coming back for more. You can trash yourself in an event, recover for awhile then trash yourself again and again as need be, all in one event. I did a 3-hr training race once where we did 6 15-minute mini-races within the big ride. It was really hot and humid; we all went thru 3 water bottles and food. I remember thinking that was my hardest single workout ever. And, man, the events can be long---road races are often 4 hours long and they can contain several long max effort periods where you think the race could be decided but then an hour later things have changed and it's like the race is starting over again at full-effort. In skiing there's more a sense of settling in, then working on dialing things up here and there as need be. You give it your all, but more smoothly for the most part. Maybe at the very top level in skiing you can have more intense tactical episodes where the hammer falls in surprising places, again and again. But most ski races aren't over 3 hrs long. Comparing apples to apples: an hour bike race to an hour ski race, I'd still say the road bike racing offers a purer / morer level of pain capacity. Maybe it's coz you're just using your legs so the rest of your body can be used for absorbing pain in various ways. : ) Legs for work, rest of body for pain reservoir. (I make myself laugh.) Running races also seem to be more pain-oriented than ski races...again maybe because running uses only legs---pain fills the rest of the body. But running usually isn't as long as bike racing and has fewer 120% effort episodes, fewer "now we make the eyes pop out" spells. In ski racing, it seems more like your body gets totally used up---you go so hard with every part of your body that you can hardly see straight, you drool, but there's less room for pure pain: the areas used for pain in cycling/running have to work in skiing. I like skiing coz it seems more work-oriented than suffering-oriented. When you're in prime form for any enduro sport there's that sense of putting the coals to the fire, heaping on the work, staying relaxed, breathing right, just flying along. But cycling is more intense and skiing is more all-body. And in cycling you have to stay somewhat more mentally aware where in skiing it's more part of the action to get flabbergasted (crosseyed). -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ... plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com ... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW! |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
The sports, at least at my levels, are so differnt that I can't
compare them. Also, bike races vary tremendously depending on the circumstances of the race -- so a race that is brutal one year might be just hard the next if it develops differently. This makes comparisons even harder. JFT |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
I used to feel that XC helped me make a nice transition in Spring to
bike racing. I suppose bike riding all winter and windtraining would make it even easier in some ways. Still, I used to do just fine in Spring races and felt like I suffered less than others. There'd be cold, windy rain races---like 40F---and I'd see guys starting with bare arms and legs and know they could not finish and they didn't. The ski racing helped me be ready for the cold and to appreciate that dressing exactly right is vital. I think I relied more on my ability to suffer than on my fitness in both sports. Doing several sports made it so I wasn't fit enough for any of them. So I end up focusing more on the quality of suffering than on the skills when I compare sports. Again, the bike racing had an extra-intense suffering that went way into the deficit regions repeatedly in one event while skiing had more of the all-body depletion and drooling thing. As far as skills go, you have to stay on your toes, alert, ready and relaxed in both sports. I'm not sure that singletrack mtb is more skills oriented than, say, crit racing. I suppose crit racing is mostly predictable but usually there is plenty of dynamic and surprising bike handling involved---think of something like Snake Alley. Or probably most Euro races. Maybe singletrack is more all-over-the-board, but bike skills just get plenty amazing once you're into the Cat 2 range or if you have the Euro experience of narrow, very dicey road courses (unlit tunnels, how about). I wonder how required skills vary between Euro xc ski racing and Euro road bike racing. Euro bikers and skiers alike have greatly impressed me with their handling skills. I've never done either a Euro ski race or bike race, tho. Are Euro ski races pretty dicey with lots of close pack action and jockeying? I'd bet that most bike races are, due to the narrow crazy roads. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ... plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com ... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW! |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
PS: What we really need to be is be crossposting this discussion to
RBR. : ) -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ... plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com ... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW! |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
For bike racing, there is a tactical component where you often have to
go really, really hard for a reason and might be duffing off a bit later on. At my (hack) level of skiing, it tends to play out more like a running race, where you hustle some to stay in a group, but don't have to do a huge effort at some point to make a break or somesuch. I don't think that makes one easier than the other, just different. I imagine the top level skiers race at a much different tempo from someone like me, maybe more like a bike race. The weather conditions for both can be pretty tough. Lastly, the "whole body" aspect of skiing can make things tough, sometimes my poor technique makes my face and neck sore, that can't be pretty to watch. They are both quite hard, from my estimation. I think cyclocross can be the toughest, maybe a hard pro-am criterium is also high on the list. John Forrest Tomlinson wrote in message . .. The sports, at least at my levels, are so differnt that I can't compare them. Also, bike races vary tremendously depending on the circumstances of the race -- so a race that is brutal one year might be just hard the next if it develops differently. This makes comparisons even harder. JFT |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing
I don't think we need that R.B.R. riff raff over here.
:^] jw milwaukee |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
FS: Salomon Junior Racing Ski's | Matthew Hammond | General | 0 | December 7th 03 03:17 PM |
Salomon Racing 9 Skate boot fit. | jacob hartsoch | Nordic Skiing | 1 | November 19th 03 05:29 PM |
Twin Cities local XC racing scene losses and gains... | SBull10152 | Nordic Skiing | 1 | November 13th 03 02:10 AM |
One pair for Racing, One Pair for training? | Jim Farrell | Nordic Skiing | 2 | September 8th 03 10:36 PM |
Team OYB: many days on the road...but big fun! | Jeff Potter | Nordic Skiing | 3 | August 2nd 03 04:23 PM |