Nordic Skiing Automobile

You don't ask for much do you?
I have a Honda Odessy (minivan) which allows easy changes inside (had a
wagon before and couldn't do that!). The traction control is new to me and I
thought it was great (even though it is only 2 wheel drive). Appointments
and quality seem first rate.
gr
"pheski" wrote in message
...
The ultimate (in terms of dream) nordic skiing automobile would:

1. Always start, regardless of temperature - even when skiers leave the
lights on all day when skiing.
2. Have a heater/defroster that works within a minute of starting the car
and has individual controls for the passengers in both front and back
seats.
3. Seat 4 comfortably and allow them all to change into ski clothes upon
arrival and civvies on departure without the need for elite gymnastic
skills
or pathologic flexibility.
4. Have bevarage holders for all occupants.
5. Handle magnificently in snow, ice, slush, hail, wind.
6. Have traction and wheelbase to allow parking in frozen dirt lots in
April
without fear of sinking into the late afternoon mud.
7. Have polarizable/variable darkness windows for early and late drives.
8. Have a pull out awning with drop down wind screens big enough for a wax
bench and equipment.
9. Have power outlets for wax irons, laptops (for tabulating training data
and reulsts of races, checking snow conditions elsewhere, etc) and a
wireless uplink for connectivity (so family can stay in touch during the
season long search for the perfect trail).
10. Be 'green' - pehaps a hybrid that gets 75+ mpg and can be recycled, or
is built of recycled war materials.
11. Have a roof rack that is big enough to hold 4 people's overloaded ski
bags.
12. Have fold down steps on the sides to allow easy access to the roof
box.
13. Have a built in GPS and stored software that maps ski areas, best
routes
to/from/between, and keeps track of weather and snow conditions and demo
day
events.
14. Have a great sound system with earphone jacks for each passenger and
the
ability to play separate tracks for each.
15. Have a windshield air-flow system that deflects road grime and spatter
*before* it reaches the windshield, and heated windshield wipers that
never
freeze up or collect masses of snow sculpture.
16. Never need service during snow season.

I think that would do it.

Peter Elias

"Matt Morency" wrote in message
om...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt

I gotta put my vote in for Subaru. Both mine ('87 Turbo 4wd 5sp XT - 156k miles
and '92 Legacy Wagon 2.2L 16v 5sp - 206k miles) have given me great service and
they handle the snowy roads like it's mid July.

For me, all I need is a car that's reliable mechanically, stick a new heater
core in it, bolt on some *real* snow tires (skinny with big lugs for tread, not
these wide 50 series all weather excuse for a tire ...not around here! ), add a
battery blanket or block heater of some sort, use good windshield washer fluid
(they aren't all the same), new wiper blades, an oil change and tune up and I'm
ready to go.

I really liked the VW Golf outfitted with Nokia Hakkapellitta snow tires, until
I got the '87 Subaru with Cooper Wintermaster tires ... WHOA ! 4wd is the way
to go. (and manual xmsn for control on ice)

The skis can go on top in a bag. Keeps them cool and the wax will work better.
I can change clothes in the parking lot as long as it's above -10F and the wind
isn't blowing too hard. I just gotta have that heater working !

A friend had an old Toyota SR5 4wd wagon that was great ! We drove out of a
farm field parking lot at the Birkie one year, fresh with 12 inches of snow and
then got a speeding ticket driving home in the blizzard. Lots of room for
stuff, and real reliable.

Personally, I can live without the CD player and cup holder, so the bottom line
for me is:

- reliable (regardless of milage)
- snow tires ( skinny with big lugs)
- good heater core
- block heater

Get me there and get me home !

John Wilke (jw)
Milwaukee

Subaru, definitely Subaru.

Yes, I can hear the groans already (disclosure, I am sponsored by
Subaru). But definitely one of the best options for a skier. Even before
our team was sponsored by Subaru, I had an '87 GL turbo wagon and a '98
Legacy GT Wagon. I still have the GT Wagon, but drive one of the team
Outbacks with winter package and Bridgestone Blizzak tires. The thing is
unstoppable in snow and on ice, without studs. The all wheel drive and
traction control are really amazing, and with dedicated snow tires, you have
to work very hard to make it slide.

At the Birkie last year, we took it out on one of the lakes and couldn't
get it to slide until we were up over 40 MPH, and then it would only go if
you jerked the wheel to one side and got it going sideways. Of course, this
was all done in the name of science.

I drove the thing through 4 feet of wet snow when we got our epic
snowstorm this Spring. I pulled out 2 people in SUV's and gave the driver
of a stuck snowplow a ride to the depot where they had a big-rig tow truck.

It also served as support vehicle on the White Rim trail earlier this
summer. It's a 105-mile desert 4WD loop in Canyonlands National Park that
is "moderately difficult" for high-clearance 4WD vehicles. The only problem
we had was exploding water containers from all the bouncing around. There
were a lot of ****ed-off rednecks in monster trucks that day as a Subaru
Outback driven by women rallied by them and left them in the dust.

I've driven across this continent in the winter multiple times in
Subaru's and many other vehicles, and would definitely recommend the Subaru
for top value. Yes, Audi All-Roads and S6's are nice, but they also cost
twice as much. I've heard that the Volvo's have reliability issues and that
their AWD system is not as good as the others, but I don't have any personal
experience. VW now makes an AWD Passat, but that is pretty pricey, too.

The key to a good winter driving experience is:
1. Good Tires. Summer tires AND dedicated snows is a must if you're
serious.
2. Winter package is nice. Wiper and mirror defrosters, heated seats,
fluid defrosters as well as headlamp defrosters seem like a luxury until
you're in the middle of Wyoming in February.
3. Practice. My wife went to the Steamboat Springs Winter Driving School
and improved 500% and is now much more confident in winter driving
situations. Even the best car with brand new snow tires is dangerous if you
don't know how to handle a slide or quick braking in the snow.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com

"Matt Morency" wrote in message
om...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt

We had a Subaru AWD wagon (before it was rear-ended by a moron), and
now have a Subaru AWD Impreza, and they have both been monsters in
the snow even with mediocre tires, but even the wagon was far too
small for me to consider titling the ideal skiing vehicle. My Jeep
Cherokee gave us many good years of skiing transportation without
ever getting us stuck, but it's not the winner, either.

I've always liked vans because they have the room inside to allow
changing clothes with the doors and windows closed. Big vans are
RWD and suck for winter driving. Mini-vans are mostly FWD and are
a little better, but not great by any means. Enter the AWD mini-van.
Now we're talking. Our current travel vehicle is a Grand Caravan
with (fully agreeing with Nathan here) separate complete sets of
summer and winter tires. Winter tires are Blizaks. Seats can be
re-configured or removed as needed. Old Thule 600 box on the roof
is big enough for 4 good sized ski bags or 2-3 extra people if you
need to smuggle them across a border somewhere. :-)

-Mitch

We have had 4 Subaru's in our family since 1994-they are a GREAT car for the
NE! We put either Bridgestone Blizzaks or Hokkapolita winter tires on and we
can go anywhere. Having strictly winter tires is the only way to go with
serious winter driving.

This past winter we had a pretty freak snowstorm that left us with 30" of
snow in less than 6 hours on Christmas night. We were able to drive home
pushing the snow with the front end of the car. The snow was up and over
the hood of the car and windshield to the point of no visibility because the
lights were being totally blackened out by the snow.

An SUV probably would have done the same but they cost a whole lot more than
a Subaru and they guzzle gas. I have had 4 bicycles on a roof rack and 4
people in my GT Wagon-on the highway we got 28 mpg!


"Matt Morency" wrote in message
om...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt

The key to a good winter driving experience is:
1. Good Tires. Summer tires AND dedicated snows is a must if you're
serious.
2. Winter package is nice. Wiper and mirror defrosters, heated seats,
fluid defrosters as well as headlamp defrosters seem like a luxury until
you're in the middle of Wyoming in February.
3. Practice. My wife went to the Steamboat Springs Winter Driving School
and improved 500% and is now much more confident in winter driving
situations. Even the best car with brand new snow tires is dangerous if you
don't know how to handle a slide or quick braking in the snow.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com


I'll second the first: Dedicated snow tires are a must. The second
would be nice, but past my experience, and practice, even in a parking
lot, just ot see what your new car and tires can do is a must.

I have been sold on the Hakkapelletta snow tires, but other snows are
great, I am sure. A mud and snow, all year tire just doesn't cut it in
the winter. I have driven snow storms and icestorms past SUV's in the
ditch (why is it always SUV's in the ditch?) with all wheel drive
without even a hint of losing control, but I have come to believe in
SOME cases, all wheel drive promotes over confidence, you don't have a
feel for the slippery conditions (exacerbated, perhaps, by traction
control) and when you need to stop, you have had no feed back. The few
times I lost control with allwheel drive were complete surprises, no
warning, no recovery. Both times, luckily, I only hit a snow bank.

I went back to rear wheel drive after all wheel drive and I loved the
fish tailing --- controlled fishtailing, I mean. Much easier with a
volvo wagon than an empty bed pickup. Not only do you know exactly how
much traction you have at any given moment, the driving experience
forces you to be "on" all the time (when it's sketchy.) But without the
snow tires, you are often lost with rear wheel. One winter, before I
put the snows on, I fishtailed the 240 around a slow city corner and
t-boned a parked car. Getting out later that day with the snows on, I
had a real world experiment proving the difference in traction. (I even
went back to the same corner to see if the note I had left on the
windshield of my 'victim' had been picked up yet --- and the corner was
shiny as glass, but seemingly not slippery with the snow tires.)

If you can't get your rear drive car out of the garage, maybe you
shouldn't be driving (that day).

Jim Farrell

PS: Karma buffs will love this one. After being overly congratulated
for doing the right thing by both my agent and the 'victim,' my volvo
was subject to two hit and runs while parked in front of my house that
same winter. I know if I had been a schmuck and not left a note after
my collision, the karmic consequence would have been obvious to all.
But for me, this just proves I live in an amoral universe. Won't stop
me from doing what I think is right just because there is no Santa Claus
checking whether I've been naughty or nice.

The key to a good winter driving experience is:
1. Good Tires. Summer tires AND dedicated snows is a must if you're
serious.
2. Winter package is nice. Wiper and mirror defrosters, heated seats,
fluid defrosters as well as headlamp defrosters seem like a luxury until
you're in the middle of Wyoming in February.
3. Practice. My wife went to the Steamboat Springs Winter Driving
School
and improved 500% and is now much more confident in winter driving
situations. Even the best car with brand new snow tires is dangerous
if you
don't know how to handle a slide or quick braking in the snow.

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com


I'll second the first: Dedicated snow tires are a must. The second
would be nice, but past my experience, and practice, even in a parking
lot, just ot see what your new car and tires can do is a must.

I have been sold on the Hakkapelletta snow tires, but other snows are
great, I am sure. A mud and snow, all year tire just doesn't cut it in
the winter. I have driven snow storms and icestorms past SUV's in the
ditch (why is it always SUV's in the ditch?) with all wheel drive
without even a hint of losing control, but I have come to believe in
SOME cases, all wheel drive promotes over confidence, you don't have a
feel for the slippery conditions (exacerbated, perhaps, by traction
control) and when you need to stop, you have had no feed back. The few
times I lost control with allwheel drive were complete surprises, no
warning, no recovery. Both times, luckily, I only hit a snow bank.

I went back to rear wheel drive after all wheel drive and I loved the
fish tailing --- controlled fishtailing, I mean. Much easier with a
volvo wagon than an empty bed pickup. Not only do you know exactly how
much traction you have at any given moment, the driving experience
forces you to be "on" all the time (when it's sketchy.) But without the
snow tires, you are often lost with rear wheel. One winter, before I
put the snows on, I fishtailed the 240 around a slow city corner and
t-boned a parked car. Getting out later that day with the snows on, I
had a real world experiment proving the difference in traction. (I even
went back to the same corner to see if the note I had left on the
windshield of my 'victim' had been picked up yet --- and the corner was
shiny as glass, but seemingly not slippery with the snow tires.)

Do yourself a favor, put some snow on a second set of rims and swap them
out before and after the season. Takes less work than changinf your oil.

If you can't get your rear drive car out of the garage, maybe you
shouldn't be driving (that day).

Jim Farrell

PS: Karma buffs will love this one. After being overly congratulated
for doing the right thing by both my agent and the 'victim,' my volvo
was subject to two hit and runs while parked in front of my house that
same winter. I know if I had been a schmuck and not left a note after
my collision, the karmic consequence would have been obvious to all.
But for me, this just proves I live in an amoral universe. Won't stop
me from doing what I think is right just because there is no Santa Claus
checking whether I've been naughty or nice.

Finally an area where I feel more qualified than most others that post
to this group. After 30 years in the auto repair world I have to vote
for either a Honda 4wd/all wheel drive or a Toyota 4wd/all wheel
drive. All of todays drivetrains are similar in their peformance to
provide the needed traction for winter driving. What sets Honda &
Toyota apart from the other manufacturers is their quality control and
frequency of repair rates. Plain and simple - they don't cost as much
to operate as all the others because they don't brake as much.

As far as snow tires go- thay are an ABSOLUTE must! The new technology
studless tires are a good choice for most i.e. Blizzaks,Nokian Hakka
Q's, Michelin Artic Alpins etc., but the Nokian Hakka 2 is by far the
ultimate- it is studless technolgy but is also studded. Only those
people that have to deal with a lot of ice need to consider those. I
personally prefer the Nokian line of snow tires- they work great and
outlast most of their competition. It also seems that snow tires made
in Finland are a better choice for nordic skiers anyways.

Joe Ricci

(Matt Morency) wrote in message . com...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt

Interesting that we use all weather tire on our Subarus and frankly have
driven in the absolute worst conditions imaginable. Last year we drove on
both the NJ Turnpike and the NYSThruway when they were closed. We live on a
very steep road that is often ice covered. We have never had a problem. That
said, there is no doubt in my mind that snow tires would be safer and would
facilitate better braking. We will use the recommendations posted to choose
snow tires.

And again, I agree from our experiences with both Toyotas and Subarus, that
the Subaru doesn't compare in terms of over all quality to Toyota. That
said, we will probably end up with another Subaru because the initial cost
is lower and our cars get pretty banged up so it doesn't make sense to get
something extra nice.

I hope this doesn't get into SUV bashing as some friends have them. Well
that is if the Honda Element is a SUV. I don't understand those SUVs.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY



"Joe Ricci" wrote in message
om...
Finally an area where I feel more qualified than most others that post
to this group. After 30 years in the auto repair world I have to vote
for either a Honda 4wd/all wheel drive or a Toyota 4wd/all wheel
drive. All of todays drivetrains are similar in their peformance to
provide the needed traction for winter driving. What sets Honda &
Toyota apart from the other manufacturers is their quality control and
frequency of repair rates. Plain and simple - they don't cost as much
to operate as all the others because they don't brake as much.

As far as snow tires go- thay are an ABSOLUTE must! The new technology
studless tires are a good choice for most i.e. Blizzaks,Nokian Hakka
Q's, Michelin Artic Alpins etc., but the Nokian Hakka 2 is by far the
ultimate- it is studless technolgy but is also studded. Only those
people that have to deal with a lot of ice need to consider those. I
personally prefer the Nokian line of snow tires- they work great and
outlast most of their competition. It also seems that snow tires made
in Finland are a better choice for nordic skiers anyways.

Joe Ricci

(Matt Morency) wrote in message
. com...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt

So does my Jeep Cherokee with the Toyota 5-speed transmission qualify?
It used to be our travel all over the country car, but now I use it to
plow out 600-ft uphill driveway. Never bought snow tires for it until
I put the plow on it. :-)

-Mitch


On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Joe Ricci wrote:

Finally an area where I feel more qualified than most others that post
to this group. After 30 years in the auto repair world I have to vote
for either a Honda 4wd/all wheel drive or a Toyota 4wd/all wheel
drive. All of todays drivetrains are similar in their peformance to
provide the needed traction for winter driving. What sets Honda &
Toyota apart from the other manufacturers is their quality control and
frequency of repair rates. Plain and simple - they don't cost as much
to operate as all the others because they don't brake as much.

As far as snow tires go- thay are an ABSOLUTE must! The new technology
studless tires are a good choice for most i.e. Blizzaks,Nokian Hakka
Q's, Michelin Artic Alpins etc., but the Nokian Hakka 2 is by far the
ultimate- it is studless technolgy but is also studded. Only those
people that have to deal with a lot of ice need to consider those. I
personally prefer the Nokian line of snow tires- they work great and
outlast most of their competition. It also seems that snow tires made
in Finland are a better choice for nordic skiers anyways.

Joe Ricci

(Matt Morency) wrote in message . com...
What would be the ultimate nordic skiing automobile? The Volvo Wagon
is popular among skiers and a recent thread discussed Subarus.
--Matt