Wistful wonderings about a wax-free world...

My question has always been ..."Does the waxing in XC skiing make it more or
less of a sport?"
I too, like Wenner, love the waxing aspect of skiing. Many friends ask my
advice and I love it when i've got faster skis than 98% of the others.

JK


"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote in message
ups.com...
Part of the history and strategy of skiing is the waxing. Those with a
lot of experience tend to do better at waxing and in particular, kick
waxing. I actually like the waxing aspect of xc skiing. It's kind of a
chess game within the sport.

Jay Wenner

You're right, the nominal cost of a stable of ski's may not be too much
worse than with bikes. However, in my case I do notice how it scares the
heck out of me. Not just buying the relatively cheap wax, but the KNOWLEDGE
required to use it, and use it properly. I'm a competitive person, and just
started training really hard on my skates to not look like a fool the happy
day I find myself on snow, at a starting grid. I cannot live with the idea
that however hard I train, someone perhaps less fitness with a pro waxman
will just glide right by me. I've had richer times, and I just BOUGHT
everything I thought I needed to take on the cycling pro's. And it made me
feel good. Knowledge was easy to obtain, just buy some expensive parts and
assemble. Waxing, the knowledge part scares me. Talks of 15 years of waxing
experience...how am I, from a now-snow country ever going to compete? How
are new nations going to join the ski scene and improve racing, if the
European ski-nationals have such a technological head start?

See, if one could get a good pair of pro race ski's for $1000 and waxing
weren't an issue, ski makers might actually sell much more top-end ski's, to
more athletes. If I'm not going to start to understand the basics of waxing,
why buy more than a couple used rock ski's? Why compete at all, for that
matter?

I think waxing is keeping the sport elitist and smaller than it could be. I
can say, I'm trying to get in, and am being scared out by that sort of
thing.
Not to say it's not a lovely sport with so much technical stuff to it to be
fast on a top level, I am totally into that with cycling, but it does scare
me out knowing that I'll never be able to catch up, and even with the best
of my fitness and skating technique, will probably hang off the back of a
small race with no spectators, because to me the sport was hard to get into.
I'd rather need to buy a single pair of $3000 ski's and have enough with
that for all types of snow and racing, than buying perfectly fine $300
ski's, 10 pair of them, and then prep them all with master wax jobs
overnight in hotel rooms and hope I accidentally got it right.
Perhaps I say it in an over-the-top manner, but just to show what I mean.


"John Forrest Tomlinson" schreef in bericht
...
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:40:22 +0100, "Jan Gerrit Klok"
wrote:

Something similar exists in cyclo-cross. Handmade tubular tires on carbon
rims, not for sale in shops. Without it you can't win, you need many
different sets and tires can't just be changed, you just carry dozens of
$$$$ wheelsets around.

No. Without the best stuff you can't win at a high level. People win
low-leverl cross races without the best stuff. Brian May who used to
post in this group won a good regional ski race on the cheapest wax
and very old poles.

Gives the sport something magical for spctators, but
also keeps the sport really small in number of active participants.

What evidence do you have that the cost of ski wax keeps people out of
ski racing, or even that the cost of handmade tubulars keeps people
out of cycle racing? The real price of racing bikes and racing
equipment (adjusted for inflation) has probably fallen over time. And
the real costs to racing bikes and ski racing are the costs of time.
And for racing bikes in the US (and ski racing in continental Europe)
the cost of travel.


I just found out our national ski federation only has a few supported
biathletes and rollerskiers, not even a single xc skier. Our country may
be
a bad example, but over here it wouldn't hurt if one could just purchase
some ski's and have a fair chance based on fitness and technique.

Are you saying that if the cost of top-end racing skis was lower that
more people in the Netherlands would ski? That is nonsense. The
reason people don't ski the Netherlands is there is almost nowhere to
ski.

JT

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On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:21:28 +0100, "Jan Gerrit Klok"
wrote:

Talks of 15 years of waxing
experience..

Just go skiing. Don't think so much about this stuff. Go skiing

JT


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John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:


Are there fundamental
technical reasons why the qualities
we desire from waxing can't be
engineered into the base material to start with?


Yes. Snow varies.

Yep, but it varies for _everyone_ in the race. I know some people see
the art of waxing as a good thing... another skill required to produce a
good result.

I think that a waxless system would be better for two major reasons.
Firstly it would create more of a level playing field. (I think most
sports involving individual equipment would be better if everyone used
the same standard gear, too). Secondly, it would make skating and racing
less unattractive to newcomers.

Chris

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:14:51 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:00:55 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:


Are there fundamental
technical reasons why the qualities
we desire from waxing can't be
engineered into the base material to start with?


Yes. Snow varies.

Yep, but it varies for _everyone_ in the race.

Even if the snow varies for everyone in a race, the only way to have
optimal skis for every *race* would be to have a huge quiver of skis.
No-wax skis set up for a wide range of snow types.

I think that a waxless system would be better for two major reasons.
Firstly it would create more of a level playing field. (I think most
sports involving individual equipment would be better if everyone used
the same standard gear, too).

That adds quite a burden on the race organizing side. Even if no-wax
skis get good, smal adjustments with wax will always be better (unless
someone has a truly masive ski collection for different conditions).
So what's it going to be -- the organizers putting wax-remover on all
starters skis? Or pre-race ski checks?

Secondly, it would make skating and racing
less unattractive to newcomers.

You can get good glide for recreational skating with almost no waxing
as long as the snow is moderate -- not super cold new snow. Where I
live about half the people who use skate skis regularly have their
skis hot waxed once a year or less -- at a shop. They rub on stuff
like F4 themselves. And they have fun.

Racing may be a different story, but I think more with the obsessive
types who care about winning, not just participating. I don't know
many people who don't even try racing, ast least freestyle, because
they are scared of waxing. Most people I know who are getting started
with racing think more about just getting through the event, not
having the fastest skis.

JFT



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Let a maximum of for instance 3 sets of ski's be marked at the start of the
season. Pick from those three for each race. Or 2 for each skating/classic.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" schreef in bericht
...
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:14:51 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:

You can get good glide for recreational skating with almost no waxing
as long as the snow is moderate -- not super cold new snow. Where I
live about half the people who use skate skis regularly have their
skis hot waxed once a year or less -- at a shop. They rub on stuff
like F4 themselves. And they have fun.

Racing may be a different story, but I think more with the obsessive
types who care about winning, not just participating. I don't know
many people who don't even try racing, ast least freestyle, because
they are scared of waxing. Most people I know who are getting started
with racing think more about just getting through the event, not
having the fastest skis.

JFT



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All this talk of how complicated waxing is. I agree that it is like
chess - takes a little while to learn the basics so you can do a
reasonable waxing job, but a lifetime to master the finer points. For
a wax that is in the ballpark, you can usually just pick one of the
major brands and choose the wax that is listed for the current snow
temperature. If you want a bit more, then you can consider adding a
bit of structure if you're dealing with wet snow.

With this strategy, you'll often not have the best wax, but it will
usually be not too far off. I'm sure that most (if not all) of the
major wax makers have a good waxing 101 on their website that should
help to get anyone started. Keep in mind that anyone really serious
about waxing will rarely pick a wax and race on it - they will test out
a few different waxes and compare the relative speeds to make their
race choice.

I disagree that waxing is really difficult to get started in and be
able to make a reasonable choice, but I definately agree that it is
difficult to be able to consistently choose the best wax.

PS Forcing competitors to get skis marked at the beginning of the
season would discourage occasional racers - they would have to register
with some organizing committee to get skis marked (to ensure that only
x get marked) instead of just showing up at a race to have some fun.
Plus, what happens if you break a ski or badly scratch a pair?

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:38:50 +0100, "Jan Gerrit Klok"
wrote:

Let a maximum of for instance 3 sets of ski's be marked at the start of the
season. Pick from those three for each race. Or 2 for each skating/classic.

So you are saying that because of the trouble of waxing, a system has
to be set up to monitor skis across races (that is, a national or even
international system (I've raced in two countries and am just a
beginner...).

It's bizarre to try to solve some small or perceived problem with a
complex system like that.

JFT


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A nowax racing competition of some sort would really appeal to me. Show up
to a race, and if you decide it's your day, enter, have your ski's checked,
and take off.

I see my idea of marking ski's a the beginning of a season would only make
sense in really serious racing. But perhaps using the same ski's as the race
before could be worth a couple rows on a mass start, or some seconds in the
results. Three's always ways.

If nowax racing existed, that's where I'd go to learn the sport.
How is that with kid's races? Dads are the waxmen?

In the mean time, I'll have to buy some wax books to go with my beginner
ski's :-)

"John Forrest Tomlinson" schreef in bericht
...
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:38:50 +0100, "Jan Gerrit Klok"
wrote:

Let a maximum of for instance 3 sets of ski's be marked at the start of
the
season. Pick from those three for each race. Or 2 for each
skating/classic.

So you are saying that because of the trouble of waxing, a system has
to be set up to monitor skis across races (that is, a national or even
international system (I've raced in two countries and am just a
beginner...).

It's bizarre to try to solve some small or perceived problem with a
complex system like that.

JFT


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This is a great thread, very interesting and most of my opinoins have
already been stated very well by others. Basically, I agree that
"basic" waxing can be very simple, cheap and will be very close to the
"best job possible". Not close enough for those who want to save every
1/10 of a second for long races that are decided in seconds, but very
very adequate for people who race just to "do as well as I can" whether
that be a very fit and competative, but not winning, person all the way
back to those of us that ski for fun, fitness, and to set PRs in
various events (mid-back of the packers).

As for the concept of no-wax races. What it would end up being is that
serious people would have even larger quivers of skis. There is
absolutely no doubt that in a no-wax situation, the competitors would
find individual skis that would perform best in the condition of the
day. Yes, a competative skier currently has multiple skis, but some of
the differences can be mitigated or overcome by waxing and structuring,
therefore requireing less of a variety of skis. No wax rules would
make it an even more expensive sport for those that really want to
compete- and they are the same people who go to great lengths in wax
products and techniques.