Simple Beginner Progression

Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

There's been some talk about over analysis, but one can
not simplify unless they totally understand what it is they
wish to simplify. Simplification can only come from
complete analysis.

Here is the progression:

1. Understand and stay in home position, maintain
it to stay in balance. Hold arms forward and use stomach
muscles to regain forward position when the momentum
of sliding on the skis tends to throw you backward. Hold
ski poles horizontally in front of the body, with arms
almost fully extended, nearly shoulder high all the time
you are skiing. The shoulders stay square with the skis,
there is no turning of the shoulders to try to turn, the
turning is all done with the legs. At first there is no leaning
to one side or the other. The body stays centered between
the skis.

When you get in trouble, go home. When you lose balance,
get back into home position and you will regain balance.

2. Traverse.

3. Make a *wedge* (not a stem) to initiate the turn.
This is "setting the wedge", or "setting the edge of
the outside ski". Make the edges bite as the wedge is
made.

4. Transfer most or all weight to the outside ski.

5. Pick up the tail of the inside ski while leaving the tip
on the snow, put it next to the outside ski. You only
need to pick up the tail a tiny bit. This is a way to
match the inside ski to the outside.

6. Let the tail(s) skid around the tip(s), and twist the leg(s)
in the direction of the turn if you wish.

7. For a parallel turn, set the edge and pick up the
tail at the same time.

The progression is based on the idea that the motion
to initiate a parallel turn and the motion to initiate a
wedge are the same motion, except that a parallel
initiation is done with only one ski. A basic parallel
turn initiation is actually *half* of a wedge turn
initiation. They are the same motion.

The most critical thing the student must do is to have
hands forward and steady at all times. Every second
that the student spends with hands other than forward,
or waving around, is wasted time. If the hands aren't
forward and still, nothing will work.

The most critical thing for the student to understand as
they progress is that the body must be on the inside of
the turn. This is crossover. At slow speeds, only the hips
move to the inside of the turn, while the shoulders stay
over the skis.

When you initiate with a wedge and pick up the tail of
the inside ski, crossover automatically happens. When
you move to a more parallel initiation and turn, and
increase the speed of skiing. understanding of crossover
helps, as it may or may not continue to automatically
happen.

How this could confuse I can't imagine, as I've never
seen it happen. How anyone could fail to get access to,
or make use of it is also beyond me, as I've never seen
that happen either. Sooner or later, everyone gets it, as
simply as described. Anyone who has grown past the
magical thinking stage can make use of this progression.
There are some principles of the mechanics of skiing
that are left unsaid here, but could readily be explained
should the student need or desire to know them.

Anyone who can do the progression can teach anyone
else to ski according to it, if they have the ability to see
what is lacking when the student tries the progression
and isn't succeeding. Some problems, simple as well,
might be: leaning, lack of edging, turning shoulders,
waving hands, not using abs and arms to maintain
home position, or not being forward enough to allow
the tail of the ski to skid around the tip.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:41:30 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

There's been some talk about over analysis, but one can
not simplify unless they totally understand what it is they
wish to simplify. Simplification can only come from
complete analysis.


Interesting. Lets simplify your analysis of over analysis through a
process of analysis that will lead to understanding your talk. What
your saying here, is that simple things may actually be complicated by
multiple complications, and that only through studying these
complicating matters can one acheive the final truth and simplify the
complicating complications that lead to singular simple truths that
are only simple to those who understand the true complications behind
the theories that drive one's understanding of a singular simple
concept.

Could this be the key to unlocking the mystery of Inger Skramstad
Jørstad, the strange Norwegian?

nate



















nate

Sven Golly wrote:

uglymoney wrote in
:

Could this be the key to unlocking the mystery of Inger Skramstad
Jørstad, the strange Norwegian?

Only if we can see her in orange shorts and a white tank top.
Assuming, she's really a she, of course.

As with Hillary, (s)he never wears short skirts. I would guess that
short shorts would be eschewed for the same reason.

As an aside, is anyone else having trouble with yahoogroups?

--
Cheers, Bev
================================================== ===========
"On the other hand, I live in California so I'd be willing to
squeeze schoolchildren to death if I thought some oil would
come out." -- Scott Adams

I'm saying, get and stay in home position. All the time
you're skiing hold your poles horizontally in front of you,
level, at shoulder height with arms nearly extended. Keep
them that way. If they stray from that position, fix it.

Head across the slope in a parallel stance.

Make a wedge, make the edges of the skis bite, transfer
most or all your weight to the outside ski (set the edge of
the outside ski), pick up the tail of the inside ski while
keeping the tip on the snow. But only pick it up just
a teeny bit. Then put in next to the outside ski.

For a parallel turn, set the edge of the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski at the same time.

Now, either go ski, or teach somebody to go ski.

"uglymoney" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:41:30 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

There's been some talk about over analysis, but one can
not simplify unless they totally understand what it is they
wish to simplify. Simplification can only come from
complete analysis.


Interesting. Lets simplify your analysis of over analysis through a
process of analysis that will lead to understanding your talk. What
your saying here, is that simple things may actually be complicated by
multiple complications, and that only through studying these
complicating matters can one acheive the final truth and simplify the
complicating complications that lead to singular simple truths that
are only simple to those who understand the true complications behind
the theories that drive one's understanding of a singular simple
concept.

Could this be the key to unlocking the mystery of Inger Skramstad
Jørstad, the strange Norwegian?

nate



















nate

Whoosh.


"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
I'm saying, get and stay in home position. All the time
you're skiing hold your poles horizontally in front of you,
level, at shoulder height with arms nearly extended. Keep
them that way. If they stray from that position, fix it.

Head across the slope in a parallel stance.

Make a wedge, make the edges of the skis bite, transfer
most or all your weight to the outside ski (set the edge of
the outside ski), pick up the tail of the inside ski while
keeping the tip on the snow. But only pick it up just
a teeny bit. Then put in next to the outside ski.

For a parallel turn, set the edge of the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski at the same time.

Now, either go ski, or teach somebody to go ski.

"uglymoney" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:41:30 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

There's been some talk about over analysis, but one can
not simplify unless they totally understand what it is they
wish to simplify. Simplification can only come from
complete analysis.


Interesting. Lets simplify your analysis of over analysis through a
process of analysis that will lead to understanding your talk. What
your saying here, is that simple things may actually be complicated by
multiple complications, and that only through studying these
complicating matters can one acheive the final truth and simplify the
complicating complications that lead to singular simple truths that
are only simple to those who understand the true complications behind
the theories that drive one's understanding of a singular simple
concept.

Could this be the key to unlocking the mystery of Inger Skramstad
Jørstad, the strange Norwegian?

nate



















nate

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

SNIP all the BS

Sounds like the guaranteed path to terminal intermediatecy, Foot.

What happens when folks standing in balance hoist their hands forward?
They stick out their Butts to maintain balance. They'd do better to
hold their hands out from their thighs just a bit like a person
walking across a narrow beam might.

What happens when you "set your edges" in a wedge (presumably by
bringing your knees closer together)? You immobilize your feet so
that you can't do anything with them. Like steer.

What happens when you pick up the tail of one ski? You destroy half
your balance. When you do it without a wedge, you commonly cause the
hips to move over the top of the ski still on the snow. Not good for
edging.

If you stand in a wedge and roll your feet back and forth (from arch
side to little toe side), you can see one ski become more edged on the
inside and the other go flat. If you glide downhill in a wedge and
roll the arch of the right foot up off the snow, you'll turn right.
Can't make it any more simple than that.

Once you've turned, if you equalize your weight in a wedged position
while still gliding (the turn automatically puts more weight on the
outside foot), you'll automatically turn back toward downhill. Roll
up your left arch and you'll continue turning to the left. Get a
little better, go a little faster, start rolling both feet toward
corresponding edges and you can reduce the wedge gradually until
you're using the same moves to turn without a wedge.

"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message
m...
"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

SNIP all the BS

Sounds like the guaranteed path to terminal intermediatecy, Foot.

What happens when folks standing in balance hoist their hands forward?
They stick out their Butts to maintain balance.

Mine don't. I don't know what yours do. Mine end up on
the front half of the skis. For a beginner, it's all about
being forward.

They'd do better to
hold their hands out from their thighs just a bit like a person
walking across a narrow beam might.

Nope. They learn much faster when they are forward,
as opposed to the vaunted "neutral". They end up in the
back seat if you teach them neutral. If you use the
Schrittbogen progression it's impossible for them to
be in the back seat. They never know the back seat.
As soon as they get the idea and start to relax as they
ski, they end up more neutral automatically.


What happens when you "set your edges" in a wedge (presumably by
bringing your knees closer together)?

How do you set your edges anyway? You bring the ski up
on edge (quote PSIA lit unquote) by angulation of the hips,
knees and ankles. The motion to make a wedge and the
motion to initiate a skidded parallel turn are the same
motion, one with both feet, one with only one foot. Besides,
the only reason for the wedge is to learn to set edges. Once
the student can do this, the wedge is abandoned.

You immobilize your feet so
that you can't do anything with them. Like steer.

No you don't, that's how everyone edges. Angulation.
Besides, you don't need to steer, although you can if
you wish. The first goal is to get forward on the ski so
the tail skids around the tip. Since you are forward, it's
easy to steer if you like to.

What happens when you pick up the tail of one ski? You destroy half
your balance. When you do it without a wedge, you commonly cause the
hips to move over the top of the ski still on the snow. Not good for
edging.

No you don't. You do what every skier does, some most
of the time, some only now and then. Balance on the
outside ski. Sounds to me like one of those "level II skiing
tasks". Balance on the outside ski. Sounds like one of those
level III skiing tasks. Ski on one ski.

Besides, a beginner ends up with most of the weight on the
front half of the inside ski so it *can* be steered. In fact
they end up with most of the weight on the front half of
both skis.

If you stand in a wedge and roll your feet back and forth (from arch
side to little toe side), you can see one ski become more edged on the
inside and the other go flat. If you glide downhill in a wedge and
roll the arch of the right foot up off the snow, you'll turn right.
Can't make it any more simple than that.

The PSIA wedge. Precise flattening of one ski with hard
edging of the other, while still in a wedge. Takes forever to
learn, doesn't directly relate to parallel skiing, doesn't work on
the blues, *way* overly complicated. People quit. 80 percent
of the people taught this way quit. I can't think of anything
more useless than a gliding wedge.

It isn't even *close* to simple to learn.

Once you've turned, if you equalize your weight in a wedged position
while still gliding (the turn automatically puts more weight on the
outside foot), you'll automatically turn back toward downhill. Roll
up your left arch and you'll continue turning to the left. Get a
little better, go a little faster, start rolling both feet toward
corresponding edges and you can reduce the wedge gradually until
you're using the same moves to turn without a wedge.

Nope, lots of people never want to give up the big toe edge
of the inside ski. The answer is to spend about three minutes
in a wedge, so they never really know the big toe edge of the
inside ski. That's all well and good, with all the process and
everything, but you don't need to go through any of it. It's
wasted time.

My beginners will destroy your beginners. Shatter your
beginners. Humiliate your beginners. My beginners will
be GS'ing on the blues while yours are still face planting
trying to do a gliding wedge, while flapping their arms
like birds, and also falling on their butts cause they're
stuck in the backseat, trying to make the big toe edge
of the inside ski work.

:) :) :) :) :)

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message
m...
"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
Once again, a beginner progression based on Schrittbogen
techniques.

SNIP all the BS

Sounds like the guaranteed path to terminal intermediatecy, Foot.

What happens when folks standing in balance hoist their hands forward?
They stick out their Butts to maintain balance.

Mine don't. I don't know what yours do. Mine end up on
the front half of the skis. For a beginner, it's all about
being forward.

They'd do better to
hold their hands out from their thighs just a bit like a person
walking across a narrow beam might.

Nope. They learn much faster when they are forward,
as opposed to the vaunted "neutral". They end up in the
back seat if you teach them neutral. If you use the
Schrittbogen progression it's impossible for them to
be in the back seat. They never know the back seat.
As soon as they get the idea and start to relax as they
ski, they end up more neutral automatically.


What happens when you "set your edges" in a wedge (presumably by
bringing your knees closer together)?

How do you set your edges anyway? You bring the ski up
on edge (quote PSIA lit unquote) by angulation of the hips,
knees and ankles. The motion to make a wedge and the
motion to initiate a skidded parallel turn are the same
motion, one with both feet, one with only one foot. Besides,
the only reason for the wedge is to learn to set edges. Once
the student can do this, the wedge is abandoned.

You immobilize your feet so
that you can't do anything with them. Like steer.

No you don't, that's how everyone edges. Angulation.
Besides, you don't need to steer, although you can if
you wish. The first goal is to get forward on the ski so
the tail skids around the tip. Since you are forward, it's
easy to steer if you like to.

What happens when you pick up the tail of one ski? You destroy half
your balance. When you do it without a wedge, you commonly cause the
hips to move over the top of the ski still on the snow. Not good for
edging.

No you don't. You do what every skier does, some most
of the time, some only now and then. Balance on the
outside ski. Sounds to me like one of those "level II skiing
tasks". Balance on the outside ski. Sounds like one of those
level III skiing tasks. Ski on one ski.

Besides, a beginner ends up with most of the weight on the
front half of the inside ski so it *can* be steered. In fact
they end up with most of the weight on the front half of
both skis.

If you stand in a wedge and roll your feet back and forth (from arch
side to little toe side), you can see one ski become more edged on the
inside and the other go flat. If you glide downhill in a wedge and
roll the arch of the right foot up off the snow, you'll turn right.
Can't make it any more simple than that.

The PSIA wedge. Precise flattening of one ski with hard
edging of the other, while still in a wedge. Takes forever to
learn, doesn't directly relate to parallel skiing, doesn't work on
the blues, *way* overly complicated. People quit. 80 percent
of the people taught this way quit. I can't think of anything
more useless than a gliding wedge.

It isn't even *close* to simple to learn.

Once you've turned, if you equalize your weight in a wedged position
while still gliding (the turn automatically puts more weight on the
outside foot), you'll automatically turn back toward downhill. Roll
up your left arch and you'll continue turning to the left. Get a
little better, go a little faster, start rolling both feet toward
corresponding edges and you can reduce the wedge gradually until
you're using the same moves to turn without a wedge.

Nope, lots of people never want to give up the big toe edge
of the inside ski. The answer is to spend about three minutes
in a wedge, so they never really know the big toe edge of the
inside ski. That's all well and good, with all the process and
everything, but you don't need to go through any of it. It's
wasted time.

My beginners will destroy your beginners. Shatter your
beginners. Humiliate your beginners. My beginners will
be GS'ing on the blues while yours are still face planting
trying to do a gliding wedge, while flapping their arms
like birds, and also falling on their butts cause they're
stuck in the backseat, trying to make the big toe edge
of the inside ski work.

:) :) :) :) :)



Like a good skier having many techniques in their bag to chose from when the
need arises a good instructor should also have the same. A good instructor
may have a base teaching pattern that they follow but will change that and
adapt it to the students needs in a way that the student will understand,
learn and use to their best abilities.

One thing that I noticed that most very good skiers that are ski instructors
seem to forget that it is much harder for a beginner to stay forward. Fr a
very good skier staying forward is the least of their concerns since they
have mastered that techniques years ago and it is second nature. For these
skiers the neutral position is essential to be able to make the needed quick
and natural adjustments that are called for while skiing down a challenging
run or terrain. However for most beginners the neutral position is almost
impossible to maintain without constantly getting thrown back into the back
seat because they haven't learned how to really maintain proper balance.
Thus, it is better to have the beginner in a more exaggerated forward
position. The advance intermediate and above will have a much better time
of learning the neutral position. This is my two cents worth.

JQ
Dancing on the edge