A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » European Ski Resorts
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Distance of the 3 Vallees Route



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old February 11th 04, 02:28 PM
Alex Heney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:58:38 +0100, Ace wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:50:50 +0000, Steve Haigh
wrote:

Crosbie Fitch wrote:
"helloblondie" wrote in message
...

I have a very accurate map! The distance is exactly 62.5 miles well done
guys!


But, is that taking into account the ups and downs?

If not, one should add 10-40% to the distance depending upon the gradients
of the slopes traversed.

Nothing like. Add at most 5 or 6%. If you are skiing on normal pistes
with a mix of blue/red/black you are unlikely to exceed a 20 degree
gradient on average over the day. 30 degrees would be an extremely steep
black. It doesn't sound like a lot, but I can't think of a marked piste
in the 3V that exceeds that (including the couloirs in Courchevel).


30deg would give a ration of 1:1.15, i.e. a 15% difference. 20deg
gives just less than 10% diff. And yes, this would be a steep average
for a day.


I find that statement extremely surprising.

Most piste maps don't seem to give run lengths, but from those that do
(such as Soldeu-El Tarter), or where the "longest run" is a red (such
as the Planai, Schladming), it seems that most red runs average round
about 20% gradient (a 1km vertical will be around 5km pistes length).

So if you stuck to red runs all day, you could expect to be averaging
around 20%. But I'm not sure where you get your 10% for 20 degrees
and 15% for 30 degrees from.

I think the original statement of 10-40% had an upper limit somewhat
too high, but I would suggest anything from 10-30% is not impossible.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
URA Redneck if your dog can smoke a cigarette.

To reply by email, my address is aDOTjDOTheneyATbtinternetDOTcom
Ads
  #22  
Old February 11th 04, 02:35 PM
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Alex Heney
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:58:38 +0100, Ace wrote:


Crosbie Fitch wrote:


If not, one should add 10-40% to the distance depending upon the gradients
of the slopes traversed.


30deg would give a ration of 1:1.15, i.e. a 15% difference. 20deg
gives just less than 10% diff. And yes, this would be a steep average
for a day.


I find that statement extremely surprising.

Most piste maps don't seem to give run lengths, but from those that do
(such as Soldeu-El Tarter), or where the "longest run" is a red (such
as the Planai, Schladming), it seems that most red runs average round
about 20% gradient (a 1km vertical will be around 5km pistes length).

So if you stuck to red runs all day, you could expect to be averaging
around 20%. But I'm not sure where you get your 10% for 20 degrees
and 15% for 30 degrees from.


Hopefully the explanation I posted up there ^ should help.

I think the original statement of 10-40% had an upper limit somewhat
too high, but I would suggest anything from 10-30% is not impossible.


A 30% difference would mean that your distance travelled was 1.3 times
the horizontal distance, yes? So, using the Cosine rule as before,
that would give an average slope of 40deg.

So not impossible per se, but not possible in any resort I've ever
found :-)

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #23  
Old February 11th 04, 02:37 PM
Paul Schofield
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route


"Alex Heney" and many others wrote in message

...snipsy ...


If not, one should add 10-40% to the distance depending upon the

gradients
of the slopes traversed.


Doesn't this assume that you ski everything straight down the fall line? Sod
that! - in my case I'll need to add at least twice as much again for all the
traversing. No wonder I feel so tired at the end of the day - I must ski
miles more than you guys!


--
Paul Schofield

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana


  #24  
Old February 11th 04, 02:40 PM
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:37:18 -0000, "Paul Schofield"
wrote:


"Alex Heney" and many others wrote in message

..snipsy ...


If not, one should add 10-40% to the distance depending upon the

gradients
of the slopes traversed.


Doesn't this assume that you ski everything straight down the fall line? Sod
that! - in my case I'll need to add at least twice as much again for all the
traversing. No wonder I feel so tired at the end of the day - I must ski
miles more than you guys!


Good point.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #25  
Old February 11th 04, 02:58 PM
Alex Heney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:35:36 +0100, Ace wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Alex Heney
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:58:38 +0100, Ace wrote:


Crosbie Fitch wrote:


If not, one should add 10-40% to the distance depending upon the gradients
of the slopes traversed.


30deg would give a ration of 1:1.15, i.e. a 15% difference. 20deg
gives just less than 10% diff. And yes, this would be a steep average
for a day.


I find that statement extremely surprising.

Most piste maps don't seem to give run lengths, but from those that do
(such as Soldeu-El Tarter), or where the "longest run" is a red (such
as the Planai, Schladming), it seems that most red runs average round
about 20% gradient (a 1km vertical will be around 5km pistes length).

So if you stuck to red runs all day, you could expect to be averaging
around 20%. But I'm not sure where you get your 10% for 20 degrees
and 15% for 30 degrees from.


Hopefully the explanation I posted up there ^ should help.


Yes. It did, thanks.

I understand what you are saying now, and agree with you.

I (and I suspect the OP as well) was wrongly over-simplifying, and
just adding vertical to horizontal to get total distance.

And I was misreading what you wrote, thinking you were equating a 30
degree slope to a 15% slope, which is of course way low.


--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
I am, therefore I am (I don't draw conclusions).

To reply by email, my address is aDOTjDOTheneyATbtinternetDOTcom
  #26  
Old February 11th 04, 04:07 PM
Crosbie Fitch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

Maybe I should also ask if this 'distance skied' includes the very steep
chair-lifts/cable-cars?

I presume it doesn't.

NB I was guessing at around 45 degrees for snow adhesion as my upper bound,
hence root 2, hence 1.414, hence ~40%.



  #27  
Old February 11th 04, 04:31 PM
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:07:31 +0000 (UTC), "Crosbie Fitch"
wrote:

Maybe I should also ask if this 'distance skied' includes the very steep
chair-lifts/cable-cars?

I presume it doesn't.

NB I was guessing at around 45 degrees for snow adhesion as my upper bound,
hence root 2, hence 1.414, hence ~40%.


I'm curious as to how you remembered that sin/cos45 was 1/root2. Not
the sort of thing that sticks in most people's minds, I'd have
thought:-) Or is there a much simpler theorem that I've forgotten?

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #28  
Old February 11th 04, 04:33 PM
Steve Haigh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

Ace wrote:

Imagine the horizontal, or map distance represented by the base of a
triangle, whose hypotenuse would then be the distance travelled over
the snow.

Schoolboy geometry tells me that the cosine of the angle between these
is equal to the length of the base divided by the length of the
hypotenuse.

So if I ski 1 mile at an average slope of 30deg, the actual distance
skied would be 1/cos30, which is 1.15 miles, a 'difference' of 15%.

Hope it's clear now.

Doh. Yes, sorry, thats clear enough. Ta. I was just talking at cross
purposes with myself I think.
  #29  
Old February 11th 04, 04:48 PM
Steve Haigh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

Crosbie Fitch wrote:

Maybe I should also ask if this 'distance skied' includes the very steep
chair-lifts/cable-cars?

Dunno, but FYI cable cars can climb stunning gradients (e.g. the Aig du
Midi top stage must be 45 degrees if not more). Chair lifts can ascend
much less steeply, I don't know the upper limit but I can't recal riding
a chair that averages anything like 45 degrees.


I presume it doesn't.

Actually, I think I'm long past caring:-)


NB I was guessing at around 45 degrees for snow adhesion as my upper bound,
hence root 2, hence 1.414, hence ~40%.

Depending on where you are in the world the upper-limit for snow
adhesion (and I mean snow, not ice forming due to condensation etc)
varies. For reasons I do not fully understand snow sticks to very steep
slopes in the Andes (e.g. over 70 degrees), so the extent that climbing
some peaks involves swimming almost verticaly through massive amounts of
soft snow (nopt something I've done myself, but a few friends have). I
guess such conditions make for spectacular avalanches too. In Alaska and
the west coast of BC snow seems to accumulate on very steep slopes also.
It is certainly possible to ski powder at an angle over 50 degrees
sustained over a long pitch. I'm told it's due to the humidity as these
areas are very close to the Pacific.

I'm not sure about the alps, but I know snow is "dryer" and sticks less
easily so 45 degrees is a reasonable guess for the steepest slope on
which snow can accumulate in skiable amounts, but I do not know of any
pistes which get anywhere near this. And if I managed to cover 67km in
a day on such a slope I would be pretty chuffed and pretty knackered
[and probably lying].
  #30  
Old February 11th 04, 04:55 PM
Steve Haigh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Distance of the 3 Vallees Route

Ace wrote:

I'm curious as to how you remembered that sin/cos45 was 1/root2. Not
the sort of thing that sticks in most people's minds, I'd have
thought:-) Or is there a much simpler theorem that I've forgotten?

Pythagoras?
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Haute Route on board? -V- Snowboarding 5 March 19th 04 12:24 AM
3 Vallees Lift Pass Mike_Chapman European Ski Resorts 30 January 20th 04 11:35 AM
Quickest route Geneva airport to Val D'Isere Greg Hilton European Ski Resorts 20 November 28th 03 01:02 PM
Mont Blanc - Grand Mulets Route David Off Snowboarding 2 July 17th 03 08:41 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.