legs-only skating for itself

Some skiers skate without poles as a means to improve their
skate-with-poling technique for freestyle races. I like skating with only my
legs as a skiing thing on its own. Several days in the past year that's all
the skiing I've done for the day: two or three or more hours with no poling.
No races to prepare for -- just to do it.

Personal achievement is the big reason for legs-only skating for me. Trying
to get through a trail without the help of poles is a new challenge for me.
My tough challenge to skate up each long and/or steep hill without pausing
or resting in the middle. As I keep working on it, I'm finding I can do
things I never imagined.

Yesterday at Lake Placid NY, I left my poles in the car and skated 1980
Olympic Men's 15km course without pausing or resting on any of the
hill-climb sections. Two years ago I don't think I could have done that even
with poles, and last year I was amazed to get up just one of those hills in
ideal conditions. The Olympic 15 km course has 477 vertical meters of
climbing -- I think the hilliest race in the 1980 Olympics. Most sections
are the same as the hilly first 16-17km section of the Lake Placid Loppet,
but it adds three more hills (including Hi Notch). Of course lots of Lake
Placid racers have skated this with no poles (or could if they cared to),
but it felt like a great achievement for me.

* Competition:
Will all this hilly legs-only skating give me an advantage in racing? I
doubt at the lengths I've been pushing it. Because the key skill for me to
accomplish these tough hills is to get better at skating _slow_, both on the
hills and between the hills.

* Public recognition:
Skating up hills with no poles puts me in a "can't lose" situation -- since
if somebody using poles passes me, I've got an obviously visible excuse. And
if I pass somebody else (which happens), there's no need to wait for two
hours until the race results get posted.

Special moment yesterday was when I had climbed partway up East and reached
the bottom of the notorious "Russian" hill. The start is so steep that the
grooming snowmobile had gotten stuck at the bottom. The driver of the other
groomer walked down and helped push and together they got it going up the
hill. Meanwhile an audience of eight more skiers arrived. So as soon as the
groomers cleared out, I made sure to be the first one climbing up, the only
one with no poles. Halfway up it occurred to me that some of those young
guys might easily catch me. But they didn't. (I finished up the original
American extension, alone for a little downhill, then the discovery that no
good deed goes unpunished: Hi Notch.)

* Legs-only as a separate thing:
Some people choose to ski Classic for variety, even though their skating is
faster. Now I'm choosing to skate with my legs only, even though my skating
with poling is faster. Instead of alternating Skate versus Classic workouts,
I can vary skating-No-poles challenges with pure-Double-Pole-no-skating
workouts.

When will I ever do skate-With-poles? or poles-with-Classic-striding? Those
are for ungroomed golf courses and backcountry touring.

Ken

I have probably missed some of the technique threads where you were
talking about this...what do you find are the key factors in becoming
able to skate up the really steep stuff without poles? You say it's by
skating slow but it seems like you'd run out of glide as the hills get
steeper...is it a short steps / high turnover approach (analogous to
cycling)?

thx

Ken Roberts wrote:
Some skiers skate without poles as a means to improve their
skate-with-poling technique for freestyle races. I like skating with only my
legs as a skiing thing on its own. Several days in the past year that's all
the skiing I've done for the day: two or three or more hours with no poling.
No races to prepare for -- just to do it.

Personal achievement is the big reason for legs-only skating for me. Trying
to get through a trail without the help of poles is a new challenge for me.
My tough challenge to skate up each long and/or steep hill without pausing
or resting in the middle. As I keep working on it, I'm finding I can do
things I never imagined.

Yesterday at Lake Placid NY, I left my poles in the car and skated 1980
Olympic Men's 15km course without pausing or resting on any of the
hill-climb sections. Two years ago I don't think I could have done that even
with poles, and last year I was amazed to get up just one of those hills in
ideal conditions. The Olympic 15 km course has 477 vertical meters of
climbing -- I think the hilliest race in the 1980 Olympics. Most sections
are the same as the hilly first 16-17km section of the Lake Placid Loppet,
but it adds three more hills (including Hi Notch). Of course lots of Lake
Placid racers have skated this with no poles (or could if they cared to),
but it felt like a great achievement for me.

* Competition:
Will all this hilly legs-only skating give me an advantage in racing? I
doubt at the lengths I've been pushing it. Because the key skill for me to
accomplish these tough hills is to get better at skating _slow_, both on the
hills and between the hills.

* Public recognition:
Skating up hills with no poles puts me in a "can't lose" situation -- since
if somebody using poles passes me, I've got an obviously visible excuse. And
if I pass somebody else (which happens), there's no need to wait for two
hours until the race results get posted.

Special moment yesterday was when I had climbed partway up East and reached
the bottom of the notorious "Russian" hill. The start is so steep that the
grooming snowmobile had gotten stuck at the bottom. The driver of the other
groomer walked down and helped push and together they got it going up the
hill. Meanwhile an audience of eight more skiers arrived. So as soon as the
groomers cleared out, I made sure to be the first one climbing up, the only
one with no poles. Halfway up it occurred to me that some of those young
guys might easily catch me. But they didn't. (I finished up the original
American extension, alone for a little downhill, then the discovery that no
good deed goes unpunished: Hi Notch.)

* Legs-only as a separate thing:
Some people choose to ski Classic for variety, even though their skating is
faster. Now I'm choosing to skate with my legs only, even though my skating
with poling is faster. Instead of alternating Skate versus Classic workouts,
I can vary skating-No-poles challenges with pure-Double-Pole-no-skating
workouts.

When will I ever do skate-With-poles? or poles-with-Classic-striding? Those
are for ungroomed golf courses and backcountry touring.

Ken

Well 2 weeks ago I had a stroke which left me withot use of my left
arm and hand, thankfully,legs are fine.With rehab and time the hope is
to regain the use of both,but just in case,I might be doing alot of no
pole skating, to start out.But doing the little bit of no-pole skating
before this happened required me to use my arms in a rythmic action as
if I had poles ,sort of like in speedskating.Is that what you do,or do
use 100% legs and don't involve the arms?

Thanks,
Marty

MartyC wrote
I had a stroke which left me withot use of my left
arm and hand . . . I might be doing alot of no pole skating

That's showing strong spirit.
(what about single-pole skating?)

before ... use my arms in a rythmic action as if
I had poles, Is that what you do?

Yes I definitely use my arms, but not simulating poling.
When it gets steep, I just swing my arms from side to side like I would
accelerating or climbing a hill on inline-skates (with some shoulder-swing
too). Helps me glide a little longer out to the side on each stroke.

I can see how keeping the upper body quieter could be good for technique
improvement, to focus completely on the the sub-motions and feelings of just
the legs. But when I'm trying to survive to the top of a steep hill and
still have capacity to enjoy some more skiing afterward, I give my legs need
all the help I can get from my arms and torso.

Ken

P.S. Reflecting more about turnover frequency:
I don't think about turnover when climbing a hill slowly. Instead I have a
sense of how much I can push on each stroke without getting too much muscle
fatigue, and that's how hard I push. My "slowness" comes first from aiming
the push partly out to the side (rather than "attacking" the hill
vertically). Second from getting good at controlling how close to the edge
of "stalling" I can take it in the current snow conditions. As I sense my
side-glide is getting close to stalling on the current stroke, then it's
time to start the next stroke out toward the opposite side. So for me
instead of "light and quick", it's "side-push-glide and
slow-to-almost-stall".

I tried another non-racing challenge: skating with no poles at Garnet Hill,
in northern New York -- a ski center which I like for several reasons also
with my poles: interesting trails, nice lake skiing, serious hills, helpful
detailed snow reports.

My big challenge was to skate from Rogers Rd up to the ski shop with some
tougher hills along the way -- with no stops, no rest pauses -- and no
poles. Two years ago this was well beyond my skating capabilities even with
poles, and one year ago I was rather satisfied make it for the first time
with poles.

My route was Rogers Rd up to the Sugarhouse, then up the Solitude trail to
Bobcat, down a little on Trappers and straight into Skullbuster Hill, up
to the scenic viewpoint. Skullbuster might be more sustained steep than any
single hill at Mt Van Ho -- I was at my limit on technique and strength. I
was real happy to make it up to the ski shop. (though now it occurs to me
that I could have kept climbing up to the Log House lodge -- something for
next time).

After a snack I found a second challenge at Garnet Hill. I went down to
Thirteenth Lake, and it was pretty and pleasant skating on it flat. My
challenge was to skate with no poles from the Lake up to the Log House
lodge. On this one I did stop twice, for road crossings: Beach Trail to
Hooper Loop, finish on Andy's Run. This turned out to be tougher than I
expected because some of the trails are not as wide, which made it hard for
me to take the steep sections slower by gliding out to the side.

My legs felt more tired afterward than I remembered from the Olympic Men's
15km course at Mt Van Hoevenberg. I didn't record my time for either
climb -- I'm sure it was slow. But after the first climb and the flat
skating on the lake, my skating technique up the second climb came together
like never before.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Some skiers skate without poles as a means to improve their
skate-with-poling technique for freestyle races. I like skating with only my
legs as a skiing thing on its own. Several days in the past year that's all
the skiing I've done for the day: two or three or more hours with no poling.
No races to prepare for -- just to do it.

I totally agree - skiing with out poles (skate skiing or striding) is
an excellent exercise and can give you a tremendous sense of
accomplishment. Excellent training, exercise and fun as a change of
pace.


* Public recognition:
Skating up hills with no poles puts me in a "can't lose" situation -- since
if somebody using poles passes me, I've got an obviously visible excuse. And
if I pass somebody else (which happens), there's no need to wait for two
hours until the race results get posted.

I couldn't understand if you're talking about a race situation here or
just out skiing. If you're just out skiing for fun or training, I
think this is not a good attitude to have. You should be going at a
rate that makes sense for you, whether that just the pace that is fun
or for a specific training goal for that day - interval, recovery, LSD,
etc. How you are skiing compared to others is the wrong way to look at
it. Pushing just to look good compared to some other skier on the trail
is vanity, not smart skiing.

If you're talking about a race situation, never mind! I would agree
with you totally on the "can't lose" aspect. Although I don't know why
someone would purposefully handicap themselves in a race situation.

But again, I agree no poles skiing is an excellent exercise no matter
how you look at it. I must say that it is not "skiing" though, at
least not the reason I love skiing. The real beauty of skiing for
fitness and locomotive function is that it is an all around technique -
using the arms, legs and abdomen in a beautifully coordinated way.

wrote
How you are skiing compared to others is the
wrong way to look at it.

"wrong" ?
Humans normally compare themselves with other humans. I'm human -- comparing
is a deep part of me.

I'm still human while I'm out skiing. Comparing myself with other skiing
humans is going to happen. So it make sense for me to enjoy it, and to
manage it in a way that makes me feel good.

If you're talking about a race situation ...

I am not. I don't see what's so sacred about races that makes them the only
"right" place for comparing.

I'm probably in the 99.9th percentile of the American population for
cross-country skiing fitness, but when I do a race the published results
always show my percentile ranking much lower.

So I like my informal non-race skiing comparisons much better. Often the
weather and snow conditions are better too.

Ken

Sorry, I just don't think that it's worthwhile to "race" (compare) when
training or skiing for fun. What are you "comparing" to? - for all you
know the guy you puff up to pass for that feel-good momemt is doing an
LSD or technique work out and your comparison shows you nothing. You
push hard, he skis slow and smart and you win. So what? Is it the
purpose of your ski to beat some stranger up a hill? that's a race,
not a controlled, mature training plan. Just my opinion mind you, but
I don't think it's worthwhile or productive to be thinking of those
things unless you're racing or doing some sort of pace work out.
Now, when I'm doing an interval or such work out I will try to join
with a similar skier and get some competitition going to push the pace.
Or when skiing with friends for fun, like on a tour or such, we often
race downhill (rarely uphill because that's not "fun"). Again, just
mho.

Of course your race rankings have nothing to do with your fitness
relative to the general population, because the general population is
watching TV, not ski racing, but you knew that. I guess it might be
fun to beat some duffer out on the trail on a Sunday afternoon, but
what's the point? -zeke