Helmets

David Off wrote:
Ian Spare wrote:

There were some people for whom the helment was clearly one more thing
to buy along with this years jackets, radios and any other gadget they
could find, mostly from the UK I thought :-)


All the gear and no idea? Maybe that's part of it. When I was last in
la Grave in '98 no-one wore helmets.

To be fair I didn't any of them actually skiing anywhere I was, or was
that my point ? :-)

I recall some years back having to haul some clown out of Wen Zawn at
Gogarth who refused at the traverse of Dream of White Horses, he had a
really nice helmet and loads of kit. I recall another day sat under
Dinas Cromlech when a boulder was dislodged by another punter on the
abseil down Centopah Corner which made a bee line straight for the only
person at base wearing a helmet who was minding their business belaying
someone on Left wall, you've got to laugh :-)


I ski with quite a few helmet wearers - but they tend to be doing barrel
rolls and flips and such like so all the protection would seem to be a
good idea. For the skiing I do the only point I would wear a helmet is
if there was risk of stonefall from above.

I watched a guy barrel into someone skiing in Flaine the other week, a
guy skiing down minding his own business and this lunatic barreled into
him and I heard the crack as their heads contacted... makes you think...

David Off wrote in message ...
Ian Spare wrote:
There were some people for whom the helment was
clearly one more thing to buy along with this years jackets, radios and
any other gadget they could find, mostly from the UK I thought :-)

All the gear and no idea? Maybe that's part of it. When I was last in
la Grave in '98 no-one wore helmets.

I ski with quite a few helmet wearers - but they tend to be doing barrel
rolls and flips and such like so all the protection would seem to be a
good idea. For the skiing I do the only point I would wear a helmet is
if there was risk of stonefall from above.

Dunno about Pete's case for kids. The majority of kids do wear helmets
now, even in France it is becoming a bit unacceptable to send your kids
out without them, at least in big resorts.

But at the same time when I learnt to ski as a kid we had extremely
basic equipment and did jumps and stuff and no-one ever thought of the
risks back then. I'm not sure wrapping everyone up in cotton wool is a
good thing. Still I wear a helmet when motorcycling and wouldn't
consider riding without it so maybe it is just the degree of risk being
taken.

There is a balance between the level of risk and comfort. Years ago
the materials were not available to make a lightweight helmet that was
reasonable effective against impact with a hard object (tree, ski,
tarmac etc). Helmets were seldom, if ever worn for active pursuits
such as kayaking, cycling, horse riding and skiing (And those that
were worn offered little protection). As the materials have become
available helmets can be made that are much more comfortable to wear
and/or offer more protection.

I think also that what was an acceptable risk 30 years ago is not
considered OK now. (Motorbike helmets became compulsary about then
and many people didn't like it but now it is accepted, wearing riding
hats has become the normal during that time).

Skiing is now entering the stage of helmet wearing. I fall more often
skiing than cycling or horse riding while in skiing the landing is
USUALLY soft I did once head but a waterski as I fell and the same
could happen with a snow ski, hidden rocks, ice, trees, other skiers
and boarders all provide hard things to hit (or be hit by) so I choose
to wear a helmet although like a cycling helmet or the airbag in my
car I expect it never to be used in anger.

Carl_M wrote:

Skiing is now entering the stage of helmet wearing. I fall more often
skiing than cycling or horse riding while in skiing the landing is
USUALLY soft

I wonder about the point another poster made about people using safety
aids taking more risks. There are some interesting studies on risk
assessment which basically say that humans do a poor job of it. There
is also the case of the 11 year old Canadian skier who died this week
from head injuried despite wearing a helmet... seems that excess speed
may be a factor.

David Off wrote in message ...
Carl_M wrote:

Skiing is now entering the stage of helmet wearing. I fall more often
skiing than cycling or horse riding while in skiing the landing is
USUALLY soft

I wonder about the point another poster made about people using safety
aids taking more risks. There are some interesting studies on risk
assessment which basically say that humans do a poor job of it. There
is also the case of the 11 year old Canadian skier who died this week
from head injuried despite wearing a helmet... seems that excess speed
may be a factor.

A single incidence does not make a case. I agree that helmets do not
offer 100% protection and I have mean overtaken by maniacs going far
too fast both with and without helmets. To proove the point you would
need to carry out a controlled experiment (although if the
participents knew it was an experiment it might affect their
behavior). While there may be a few people that take more risks if
they perceive they are at lower risk I don't think it is many. If
there were you would expect the incidence car crashes to be higher in
cars with air bags than those without. I don't have the figures but I
would be surprised if any differance is significant.

Carl_M wrote:
A single incidence does not make a case. I agree that helmets do not
offer 100% protection and I have mean overtaken by maniacs going far
too fast both with and without helmets. To proove the point you would
need to carry out a controlled experiment (although if the
participents knew it was an experiment it might affect their
behavior). While there may be a few people that take more risks if
they perceive they are at lower risk I don't think it is many. If
there were you would expect the incidence car crashes to be higher in
cars with air bags than those without. I don't have the figures but I
would be surprised if any differance is significant.

There is actually a lot of research into this and it's this I assume
other posters were referring to unless you're assuming they were just
making it up.

With or without research the idea that "may be a few people that take
more risks if they perceive they are at lower risk I don't think it is
many" is manifestly absurd, simple day to day observation would clearly
refute this.

While there may be a few people that take more risks if
they perceive they are at lower risk I don't think it is many. If
there were you would expect the incidence car crashes to be higher in
cars with air bags than those without. I don't have the figures but I
would be surprised if any differance is significant.

There is actually a lot of research into this and it's this I assume
other posters were referring to unless you're assuming they were just
making it up.

I may have missed one but as far as I can make out so far in this
thread 4 people have made referances to research. Mike Clark and Carl
Edwards suggested that people do take more risk (although IMO Carl's
American Football example is a bit different because the objective is
to hit people with your helmet). Moon man and PG referred to research
where this is not the case. Without knowing the details of the
research I can not make a judgment on how it applies to skiing.


With or without research the idea that "may be a few people that take
more risks if they perceive they are at lower risk I don't think it is
many" is manifestly absurd, simple day to day observation would clearly
refute this.

Is it manefestly absurd that there are a few people that take more
risks or that there are not many. Others may disagree with me but I
don't think my view is absurd

As I'm taking my two kids for their first week of skiing in
a few weeks it would be good to hear some advice on the
best way of getting hold of some helmets for them.

Is it better to buy/rent in the UK, or is it easy to
buy/rent helmets when we rent ski's & boots? Also,
what is the price difference between renting and buying?

Jeremy Westhead wrote:

However this was based on the presumption that we could assess our own
skiing abilities and match our skiing to that. Kids on the other hand often
can't (or don't perceive the risk that may result if they don't) and
therefore it may well be sensible for them to do so.

"Nigel Bradley" wrote in message
...
As I'm taking my two kids for their first week of skiing in
a few weeks it would be good to hear some advice on the
best way of getting hold of some helmets for them.

Is it better to buy/rent in the UK, or is it easy to
buy/rent helmets when we rent ski's & boots? Also,
what is the price difference between renting and buying?

Jeremy Westhead wrote:

However this was based on the presumption that we could assess our own
skiing abilities and match our skiing to that. Kids on the other hand
often
can't (or don't perceive the risk that may result if they don't) and
therefore it may well be sensible for them to do so.

Nigel
Our children have been to ski schools in Austria and France where ISTR
helmets were easily hired with the skis/boots and were considered mandatory.
I don't recall the costs being significant. I heard in Val d'Isere, I think,
that children must have helmets for ski school, and all children in the ski
schools we've come across wore helmets - at least in the age group up to say
10 years, can't be sure about older groups. But can't ever recall adults
wearing helmets in ski classes, maybe they do now, can't tell - will have to
look into that...
Look at on line shops like Snow and Rock for costs - it seems a helmet can
cost upwards of £50 for children.
HTH
Mike

Nigel Bradley wrote in message ...
As I'm taking my two kids for their first week of skiing in
a few weeks it would be good to hear some advice on the
best way of getting hold of some helmets for them.

Is it better to buy/rent in the UK, or is it easy to
buy/rent helmets when we rent ski's & boots? Also,
what is the price difference between renting and buying?


Cost of buying depends a lot on what you want. Helmets start at about
£20 from places on the web like www.outdoorgear.co.uk and
www.skiwear4less.co.uk. I would recommend buying in person however to
ensure a good fit (with goggles being worn). Skiwear4less tour round
the UK each weekend so you might find they are coming near you (the
places they are going is on the website) so that is an option. If you
want a helmet that looks better, offers more protection (?), is more
comfortable or has the latest brand name prices go up to £80 and more.

Hiring in the UK would cost about £12. While the helmet is probably
not right at the bottom of the price bracket you would not be able to
choose one that fits the shape of your child's head and you would not
know if it had been in a severe accident previously.

It is easy to rent or buy in the resort. I don't have prices but like
everything else it is likely to be much more expensive in Tignes than
Andorra. Most ski rental places will hire helmets too (same
limitations as hiring in the UK) or you can tour the shops in the
resort on your arrival day in order to buy (however if you travel on a
late flight this will not be possible and if you are on an early
flight the kids might be very tired having got up in the middle of the
night).

"Nigel Bradley" wrote in message
...
As I'm taking my two kids for their first week of skiing in
a few weeks it would be good to hear some advice on the
best way of getting hold of some helmets for them.

Is it better to buy/rent in the UK, or is it easy to
buy/rent helmets when we rent ski's & boots? Also,
what is the price difference between renting and buying?

Generally speaking hiring equipment for kids makes sense as it is bulky to
carry and they grow out of it quickly. The cost of hiring childrens
equipment is usually reasonable compared with adult equipment. Personally I
would always hire in the resort as you save on carrying the equipment around
with you and price savings are usually not much.

Having said all that our children have their own lids as one year we went to
Lech and they did not have any to rent so No 1who was skiing had one bought
for him which got passed onto No 2. We have subsequently bought cheaply at
end of season sales, childrens heads seem to grow a little slower than other
parts of the body.

Bob