Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
... with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges and
NNN BC bindings can do it all.

What's this heavy NNN BC stuff, Terje?
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic on
your skating skis?

Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I've skied about 2000 km of hilly, trackless backcountry tours, going
from the north to the south end of Telemark county in four days around
the first weekend in March.

Some of this has been totally glazed ice, some has been bottomless
powder, mostly it has been somewhere in between.

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard. :-)

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Am Dienstag, den 07.11.2006, 09:03 +0000 schrieb Peter Clinch:

Light for a plastic telemark boot, certainly, but there are no genuinely
light plastic telemark boots, only less heavy ones.

My Scarpa T2X weighs less than my leather boot (Andrews Expedition
Laces) ...

Cheers,

Uli

Am Sonntag, den 05.11.2006, 12:16 +0000 schrieb Ken Roberts:

Actually for around Lausanne I would recommend accepting another kg in boot
weight and getting a 3-buckle boot for better control. Now you may say you
don't care about steeper downhill slopes, but once you see what range of
tours gets opened up and the range of partners who will accept you if you
can confidently handle a steeper downhill slope, I bet you'll be glad you
went for the extra control.

You're looking only in one direction. But closest mountains to Lausanne
are the Jura!!! :-)

Anyway, i live there where you looked to and i can tell you, that last
year i did several S3 skitours with fjelltelemarkskis (polarstar) and
leather boots (Col d' Emaney e.g. from Salvan).

I like that equipment also, because IMHO it's an excellent training for
your skiing sensibility.

Cheers,

Uli

Am Montag, den 06.11.2006, 15:39 +0000 schrieb Ken Roberts:

How about just tell us about three interesting and pretty touring areas
around Lausanne which get reliable snow -- and
(1) are suitable for the "light tele" gear (but mounted on skis narrow
enough to fit into groomed Classic ski tracks, and where the whole setup is
at least 1 kg _lighter_ than Scarpa F1 boots + Dynafit binding + light
randonnee racing skis),
but
(2) are _not_ suitable for Scarpa F1 boots with light randonnee skis.
(3) are _not_ suitable for wider "cross-country" skis with an SNS Profil
binding

I'd say the Transjurassien (not the race but the parcours) - or some
parts of it - would be really nice with Dynafit and Scarpa F1. My god,
if you like it you can do it, but ...

Cheers,

Uli

Am Montag, den 06.11.2006, 15:18 +0000 schrieb Ken Roberts:

Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.

Can't second that. Even though not norvegian. Here (Chablais) you see
lots of telemarkers doing serious ski touring. And when i'm skiing in
Champex in the morning i see coming down those who do the
Chamonix-Verbier-Zermatt Haute Route and i'd say a 10% of them are
telemarkers. Rather growing as number.

Sure, mostly they're using fat or midfat skis (not fjelltelemarkskis).

Cheers,

Uli

Terje Mathisen wrote
let's just agree to disagree, OK?

Since I don't know what it is we disagree about . . . No it's not OK.

I think it's just fine if lots of skiers like to use serious telemark
equipment in Norway and make telemark turns. And it's just fine with me if
Norwegians bring their telemark equipment (and turns) with them when they
visit the Alps.

Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route" has been done with
nordic touring skis.

I believe that. I've toured from Argentiere to Champex, then over the
Plateau du Couloir to Zermatt (the "classic" haute route) twice -- both
times on Asolo Snowfield leather boots and Rottefella 3-pin bindings. I
think that set-up should qualify as "nordic touring skis".

I can believe that some expert skier/mountaineers did that same route on NNN
BC bindings -- on a day with favorable snow conditions. And believe that
they set some sort of "record" by using such light gear. Actually I suspect
I could do the classic haute route on SNS Profil bindings -- if the snow +
weather conditions were favorable. And one of my German partners could do it
with a long wooden toothpick glued to the bottom of each of his hiking
boots.

But the fact that the classic haute route _can_ be done on equipment like
that (or even if NNN BC is even optimal for it for a few special skiers on a
special day) does not mean that NNN BC or leather boots with 3-pin bindings
are a smart choice to purchase for a local skier who's going to want to get
out there on terrain like that and have _fun_ in it for lots of days
throughout the winter and spring, including days when the snow isn't so
good.

I was being stupid when I did it in leather boots. Back then I had never
tried alpine touring gear. Now that I've got my own set of Alpine Touring
equipment, I know how superior it is for being safe and having _fun_ in lots
of different kinds of snow. There's no way I'm going back to leather boots
now. And the saving in weight of NNN BC versus Scarpa F1 + Dynafit is so
small, there's no way it can make sense to recommend NNN BC as a "suitable"
set-up for the Alps around Lausanne (except for somebody trying to set some
new record.)

OTOH I have my own experience which is that it is perfectly possible to
climb up & down _very_ steep mountains in competition xc gear, even if the
snow varies between glazed, packed drifts and sudden powder pockets.

This raises a good point: Most skiers do not actually _ski_ the entire haute
route. The steepest sections are usually done with skis strapped to the
pack: e.g. descending the north side of Col du Chardonnet, climbing from
Valsorey to Plateau du Couloir, climbing west side of Col du Mont Brule.
(Not to mention the bus or taxi ride from Champex to Bourg St Pierre.)

So the key to surviving the classic haute route on light gear is: What can
you handle with your skis off. Which reminds me that the key limitation I
felt in using my SNS bindings and track Combi boots for more serious tours
was my difficulty in finding _crampons_ that fit well on my track Combi
boots.

Ken

Ulrich Hausmann wrote
when i'm skiing in Champex in the morning i see
coming down those who do the Chamonix-Verbier
-Zermatt Haute Route and i'd say a 10% of them are telemarkers.

I'm not surprised. I had two of those telemarkers using my apartment as a
staging base last March. I tried to tell them the conditions were not
favorable, and that there were instead lots of great shorter tours in the
Chablais and other mountain groups nearby, but they were determined to "do
the haute route". Three days later they abandoned.

I've noticed that none of my ski partners who _lives_ near the Alps has ever
done the "haute route" -- or expressed any interest in trying it. And now
that I've gotten to know all the other nearby mountain groups in the Alpes
du Nord, I have no interest in ever doing it again. Selected parts every few
years with visiting friends, but not the whole thing.

Hearing of lots of telemarkers on the "haute route" fits with my view of who
is buying most of the telemark bindings nowadays: folks who do most their
ski days lift-served, and don't have much depth of experience with serious
touring. Fits with my own choices on the "haute route": I chose the route
because I didn't know what else was available, and I did it on light
telemark boots + bindings becuase I didn't know how superior Alpine Touring
gear was.

At least 80% of the people I know who ski most of their days in real
backcountry, and few or no days lift-served -- have abandoned their telemark
skis after many years of experience, and purchased Alpine Touring set-ups.

Ken

Terje Mathisen wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic
on your skating skis?
Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I was remembering you once said you chose skating skis for the
Hardangervedda because their sidecut made it easier for controlling turns on
moderate downhill sections.

(I'm thinking all the Original Poster really needs to do is just purchase
some "kicker skins" for his skating skis.)

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

Same reason I decided not to go for NNN BC (or the Salomon BC): When I
carefully totaled up the extra weight, it just didn't seem worth it. Instead
I've done some long committing tours (and lots of short ones) on my track
Combi boots with SNS bindings.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard.
:-)

You're making it tough for us to find something to "disagree" about.

Ken

VtSkier wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.
I have a fair number of free-heel friends (though I'm
not one) who will tell you differently.

Sounds like they've never tried the Scarpa F1 boot with a Dynafit binding.

I used to do steeper backcountry in Vermont (e.g. Mt Mansfield + Camels
Hump) and the Adirondacks (e.g. Mt Marcy + Wright) on light leather
"telemark" boots and 3-pin bindings. Now I do them on my Scarpa F1 Alpine
Touring boots.

AT is great coming from an Alpine background, but I would
think that "Light Tele" would be equally great coming from
a touring/cross-country/Nordic background.

Me and all my friends who are delighting in our new Alpine Touring gear all
came from a nordic free-heel background.

Backcountry telemarking is over.
Except in Norway.

Ken

[ Ken Roberts ]

Backcountry telemarking is over.
Except in Norway.

For the record, many people in Norway too are switching to AT,
although it hasn't completely killed telemark yet.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp