Buying the right avalanche transceiver?

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In article ,
John Red-Horse wrote:
In article ,
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Oct.12.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ He's truly gone over to the dark side and has actually been
hired by TelemarkTips.com to write about AT stuff.


So this precludes him from running his (more than likely copyrighted)
bot on Usenet?


_ I dunno, even my poor attempts at writing take time. I know
where I'd be spending my time if I was actually being paid for
it.

_ Booker C. Bense


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In article ,
lac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ I dunno, even my poor attempts at writing take time. I know
where I'd be spending my time if I was actually being paid for
it.


Booker, dude, you've got to be kidding; stop it with the false modesty.

Anyway, Andrew still finds time in his busy writing schedule to post in
the regular threads on t-tips from time to time. (I like to think it's
because he feels that it's sort of like shooting fish in a barrel.)

I also like to think that the Usenet-propagated tele-v-at thing *is* via a
bot. If so, it was written and employed eons ago. Unleash it, Andrew,
and come back to watch the catfight...

cheers,
john

Booker C. Bense schrieb:

demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight
plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think
you'll ever have to dig someone up.

A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian
guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic
shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest
you to use those of alluminium ...

Greetings,

Ulrich

Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93
@newsread4.arcor-online.net:

Booker C. Bense schrieb:

demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight
plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think
you'll ever have to dig someone up.

A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian
guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic
shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest
you to use those of alluminium ...

Greetings,

Ulrich

This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the
Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I
have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.

Jeremy

[ Jeremy Mortimer ]

This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the
Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I
have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.

You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky
enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the
snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks
away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand)
plastic blades I've had occasion to try.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp

Martin Thornquist wrote in
:

[ Jeremy Mortimer ]

This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is
the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic
blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.

You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky
enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the
snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks
away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand)
plastic blades I've had occasion to try.

Well, yes, because I sometimes practice searches in avalanche debris. I've
also used the shovel to dig a snow hole. To be honest, I've not used a
metal shovel, so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing. But I've always
been impressed with my plastic one.

Jeremy

In message
Jeremy Mortimer wrote:

Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93
@newsread4.arcor-online.net:

Booker C. Bense schrieb:

demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight
plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think
you'll ever have to dig someone up.

A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian
guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic
shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest
you to use those of alluminium ...

Greetings,

Ulrich

This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the
Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I
have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.

Jeremy

Yes I have two ortovox shovels, one with an alloy blade the other with a
very strong plastic blade. The plastic one came as part of a kit with an
ortovox probe and ortovox rucksack which I use primarily for off-piste
rather than touring use. The ortovox plastic shovel seems to be the one
more commonly available in the shops around the Chamonix valley and in
other French and Swiss ski resorts.

However when we were doing the Haute Route in 1999 we were faced with
having to snow-hole as a result of bad weather and an avalanche. Some in
the party had alloy shovels and some had the ortovox plastic shovels and
there was no noticeable difference in the abilities to dig in hard
packed snow. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that the weakest
part of the ortovox shovel was the telescopic handle rather than the
plastic blade. Is there any test data that shows that the plastic
ortovox is deficient for its purpose or is it just prejudice that metal
must be better than plastic?

See http://www.haute-route.cd52mike.co.uk/

--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Mike Clark wrote:

plastic blade. Is there any test data that shows that the plastic
ortovox is deficient for its purpose or is it just prejudice that metal
must be better than plastic?

For some values of "purpose"... In my brief experience with lexan
blades I've found there's no obvious deficiency in snow but if the snow
has started changed to ice then the sharper edge of a metal shovel gives
it better penetration. So it will rather depend on the conditions
whether what you have is useful or not, I think.

For snowholing, cutting into hard nevee it's the blade shape as well as
the material based on a few hours digging a planned hole a couple of
years ago. Digging into a fairly old bank of nevee we found that a
curved blade like the common Norwegian red Whitco shovels worked quite a
bit better than the flat blades on the BCA and Voile shovels, though all
were good alloy blades. The curved blade carved through the ice better
given a running start where the flat blades tended to stall, so they
could be used for hacking (rather than plain shovelling) rather better.
OTOH, the Voile and BCA shovels seemed to be more efficient at
clearing out the debris left by the primary diggers.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Martin Thornquist schrieb:
[ Jeremy Mortimer ]


This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the
Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I
have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.


You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky
enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the
snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks
away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand)
plastic blades I've had occasion to try.

Hi Martin,

it's exactly the reason why the guides up there (at Narvik) advised to
use alloy shovels (i follower therir advice). When we had to dig the icy
and/or windpressed toward the crest of the Sovande Dronning IMHO there
was a clear advantage of that shovels over my experiences with the Ortovox.

Greetings,

Ulrich

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In article ,
Jeremy Mortimer wrote:
Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93
:

Booker C. Bense schrieb:

demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight
plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think
you'll ever have to dig someone up.

A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian
guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic
shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest
you to use those of alluminium ...

Greetings,

Ulrich

This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the
Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I
have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent.


_ I carried a plastic shovel for years and it works great for
everything but avalanche debris in the Sierra. The snow here is
heavy and wet and after an avalanche sets up like concrete.
Lexan plastic shovels are probably stronger than alloy, but they
tend to bounce off hard snow, rather than chop. I always thought
the claims that you needed a metal shovel were bogus, since the
plastic ones work so well for everything else and are nearly
indestructible. However, I actually made some practice digs in
local debris and rapidly changed my mind. My tests were made
after a very similar thread to this one about 5-6 years ago. I
defended plastic shovels, but based on actually really trying in
real avalanche debris, I came to the conclusion that they are
certainly better than no shovel, but not the best tool that is
reasonable to carry. In a situation where seconds count it seemed
to me that the ablity of an alloy shovel to get through stuff
in 1 or 2 strokes vs the 5 or 6 needed with a lexan shovel
was important.

_ Conditions may be quite different where you are, but I would
recommend a few sample digs in the debris of avalanches large
enough to bury someone. At this point the weight difference
is fairly trivial between the two types[1], so there is really
no reason not to carry an alloy shovel. If you've made the
same tests and come to different conclusions, then I can't
argue with that, but you have to make the test.

_ Booker C. Bense


[1]_ Last time I checked, one of the lightest shovels made
was actually alloy.

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