My toes still hurt

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In article , MB *@*.* wrote:
Booker C. Bense
Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your
boot fits it will be plenty warm enough.


_ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots
with liners.

Uhm... melting frostbitten toes hurts like hell,

_ Done that and you're right. It was caused by
boots that didn't fit.

and the amputated ones may develpe severe
phantom pains... g

_ Missed that one so far.


I mean, with r.s.backcountry, rather than
rec.downhill.coasting.at.some.stupid.resort, ,
I'd kind of assume that not all boots that fit
are always warm enough, never mind plentifully
so.

_ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is
generally even less of an issue in the BC because
you're mostly working hard climbing. If you let
your body do the job it will keep your feet
plenty warm. If you buy plastic boots fit with
thick or double socks this is what will happen.

1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your
feet sweat.

2. You tighten the buckles to give more control.

3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation.

4. No warm blood == cold feet regardless of
how much insulation you put on them.

_ It's a vicious cycle, my feet are cold so
I'll put more socks on which leads to less
circulation....

If you have bad circulation or other
problems, then I guess you'll have to figure
something out. But my rationalization is that
for most people extra socks or thick sock is
generally the wrong thing to do. You only need
extra insulation when you're standing still.
I know from my own personal experience that
once I went to buying boots that fit with
the thinnest socks, my feet no longer get
cold. I've done it both ways and I know
which one works for me.

_ If a plastic boot and thick liner aren't
warm enough, I'd rather put extra insulation
outside the boot and not compromise my control
of the ski.


No heel lift ever... No matter what you do
your heel should not move in the boot.

Why? Blisters? Occasional or slight heel movement
shouldn't be an issue. Not with decent socks at
least, rather than the thinnest ones you can find.

_ Hey, I was just listing what works for me. If I want to control
a ski with a telemark turn, no heel lift. Even with relatively
light NNN/BC boots, I find that if I can get no heel lift, I ski
with much more control.

_ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there
is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that
comfort implies less control. IMHO, that's totally
backwards, boots that don't hurt, are warm and fit
properly actually give you more control.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Booker C. Bense ,
Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your
boot fits it will be plenty warm enough.

_ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots
with liners.

Liners come in different weights, and for a good reason.
Regardless of whether the boots are plastic, rubber or
leather.

_ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is
generally even less of an issue in the BC because
you're mostly working hard climbing.

There's more to BC sking that just climbing. Eg the sea
ice is pretty flat. Skiing there is BC skiing nevertheless,
and is, quite often, heavy excercise too.

If you let your body do the job it will keep your feet
plenty warm.

Sure, excercise drastically reduces the amount of
insulation needed. Nevertheless, the extremites are
at risk in cold-weather. A typical thinnish felt
bootie/liner sure isn't (typically) enough alone for my
feeet below -30C or so, although I think that I manage cold
better than most of my mates.

But, there's more to BC-skiing than just the skiing.
Pauses, camp chores and whatever. On a multiday trip the
toes need to survive the low-intensity activities too.
Insulated gaitors may help, perhaps, but will hardly
span the gap between low and high intensity insulation
needs in cold weather.

Imo, if at all practical, one should have several boots
for different seasons and trip lenghts: Ranging from
clumsy cold-weather boots with large volume lasts to
more close fitting ones for milder conditions.

1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your
feet sweat.

Why should the liners compress less than the socks?
Is, eg, felted and woven wool that different? Besides,
the colder the conditions and the longer the trip, the
more important it is to use vapour barrier liners.

2. You tighten the buckles to give more control.
3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation.

Obviously, don't do that...

_ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there
is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that
comfort implies less control.

I guess I'm questioning the notion that relatively
loosely fitting boots wouldn't be adequate for
maintaining good control of the skis...

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In article , MB *@*.* wrote:
Booker C. Bense ,
Start with the thinnest socks you can find. If your
boot fits it will be plenty warm enough.

_ Note. That recommendation is only for plastic boots
with liners.

Liners come in different weights, and for a good reason.
Regardless of whether the boots are plastic, rubber or
leather.

_ If the boot doesn't limit circulation warmth is
generally even less of an issue in the BC because
you're mostly working hard climbing.

There's more to BC sking that just climbing. Eg the sea
ice is pretty flat. Skiing there is BC skiing nevertheless,
and is, quite often, heavy excercise too.

_ Seems kind of pointless to pick boots for conditions
you'll never see. While I probably should have put
some disclaimers around my rants, I expect anybody
skiing in the Artic will know better.


If you let your body do the job it will keep your feet
plenty warm.

Sure, excercise drastically reduces the amount of
insulation needed. Nevertheless, the extremites are
at risk in cold-weather. A typical thinnish felt
bootie/liner sure isn't (typically) enough alone for my
feeet below -30C or so, although I think that I manage cold
better than most of my mates.

But, there's more to BC-skiing than just the skiing.
Pauses, camp chores and whatever. On a multiday trip the
toes need to survive the low-intensity activities too.
Insulated gaitors may help, perhaps, but will hardly
span the gap between low and high intensity insulation
needs in cold weather.

_ For multi-day trips I bring down booties and even on
single day trips I bring a small square of foam for
standing and sitting on. It makes a huge difference
even in the relatively warm Sierra.


Imo, if at all practical, one should have several boots
for different seasons and trip lenghts: Ranging from
clumsy cold-weather boots with large volume lasts to
more close fitting ones for milder conditions.

_ Well, I've got 8 pairs and I see your point, but
the majority of the people buying plastic telemark
boots are mostly skiing resorts with the occasional
day trip into the backcountry. They are particularly
ill-served by most socks sold as "skiing" socks
at the various retailers.


1. The sock compresses as the day wears on your
feet sweat.

Why should the liners compress less than the socks?
Is, eg, felted and woven wool that different?

_ In a word yes. Felted wool is already largely compressed, after
that's how you make felt. However, no recent plastic boot comes
with felt liners. Most are either thinsulate and foam or
thermoformable foam. Socks compress on the order of a day, liners
on the order of a season or more and even then a lot less
percentage than socks.

the colder the conditions and the longer the trip, the
more important it is to use vapour barrier liners.

2. You tighten the buckles to give more control.
3. Tightening the buckles limits circulation.

Obviously, don't do that...

_ But many people do and they don't question why...


_ I think what I'm trying to get at is that there
is this wrong headed notion in the ski world that
comfort implies less control.

I guess I'm questioning the notion that relatively
loosely fitting boots wouldn't be adequate for
maintaining good control of the skis...

_ Sure if you only ski flat sea ice at -30c. Personally, I'm more
interested in steep mountain slopes at less extreme temperatures
more difficult snow conditions. Loose fitting boots suck
rocks in those conditions. I'll include a disclaimer for
north pole adventurers in future posts...

_ Booker C. Bense


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Booker C. Bense ,
_ Seems kind of pointless to pick boots for conditions
you'll never see. While I probably should have put
some disclaimers around my rants, I expect anybody
skiing in the Artic will know better.

Well, I guess this is my yearly apples vs oranges contribution
to r.s.b... Perhaps a grumpy comment that there's more to
bc skiing than telemark turns in the Sierras. Heck, where are
they anyway?

It doesn't need to be (Ant)Arctic to be a bit cold. You don't
need to be headed for the Pole, or anything exotic, to be on the
sea ice. On the contrary, actually.

What comes to frostbite, the feet are particularily at risk
on multiday trips in cold conditions. And, no, overtightening
the buckle isn't the problem here, at least not with the
typical bc-skiing boots g.
http://www.nokianfootwear.fi/english...ive_kaira.html

_ Sure if you only ski flat sea ice at -30c. Personally, I'm more
interested in steep mountain slopes at less extreme temperatures
more difficult snow conditions.

While I occasionally ski on the sea, I agree it's kind
of booring regarding the skiing technic. There are exceptions
though, like piles of packed ice, or, especially,
crossing open water with with loose ice flakes.

Loose fitting boots suck rocks in those conditions.

I don't see that loose boots are a problem in difficult steep
conditions. If it's difficult, one can't go fast (well, maybe
once...). High-speed downhill is of course loads of fun, and snug
boots might matter here, but isn't that relevant if the question
is whether one can climb a cliff face down at all.