Liebsch missing

Yes I am whining, but here is why. Don't get me wrong, COLL organizers
put in a tremendous amount of work, but they have screwed elite racers
over two years in a row. We spend a lot of our own money to travel and
while it may be inconvenient for locals when last-minute changes are
announced, it wastes days of traveling and hundreds of dollars for us
when changes are made like this. I'm not asking for them to cancel the
race completely, but they are on the Supertour, and when things are in
jeopardy and last-minute changes are going to be made, they need to
cancel the race's designation as a points race in a series.

Last year I had a ticket that took me from the finish at the Boulder
Mountain Tour held Saturday morning at 10AM that went to Minneapolis
and arrived 10PM that night so I could do the COLL the next day. I had
spoken to the race organizers in person and was assured that the race
was going to happen. When I arrived in Minneapolis, it was obvious the
race would not happen. A $600 plane ticket, race organizers say,
"sorry".

This year, the race was postponed on Monday(?) and in small print they
said "an official announcement" will be made Feb 1, which was
Wednesday. This was an official announcement made on the COLL web site
and reported at other outlets. Being stupid enough to try Boulder/COLL
again, I had another $600 ticket that would get me from the Boulder
Mountain Tour to Minneapolis in time to do the race. Not wishing to
make a swing trip to Minneapolis to spend the night in a hotel then fly
home, I spent several hours and several hundred dollars re-routing my
ticket. Since it was so close to my travel date, I had to fly into
Boise and drive to Sun Valley instead of fly there, and my ticket was
still $500. Then they announce Wednesday that there will be "some sort
of race" and pleaded with people to come out and shovel.

By this time, many of the racers on the Supertour (who are trying to
compete in an important overall series competition) had left
Minneapolis trying to find another race where they could make some
money. My teammate Kate Whitcomb drove to Sun Valley from Wisconsin.
She couldn't afford a plane ticket and by the time they announced the
race was on, she was 1000 miles away with no way to get back. She is
fighting for the Overall points in the Supertour, so all of a sudden,
she is missing two points races

I don't have a problem with them holding the race, I think it is great
they did. But they should have canceled the Supertour standing. If
that is whining, then there are a lot of others out there doing it,
too.

-Nathan
www.teamfsx.com
www.natronnordic.com

That's not uncommon around here, at least, e.g., see photos/videos of
the Mora Vasaloppet finishes on the lake, where the finish gets really
crowded. I'm not sure how it is with their downtown Mora finish (this
Sunday). The COLL 35k classic race started at 9:20, 10K Tour at 9:25,
and the first wave 35k skate at 10:30. The problem was the conditions
had prevented laying snow on the two wider streets in the Uptown area,
so a nearby narrower grassy mall was used that has trees down the
middle. Should have seen the sprinters weaving in and out of the trees
the day before. We were joking that they should have been run as a
slalom. So there would have been some mixed traffic in any case, but
yes, unlucky.

Gene

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:00:02 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:

like the collisions at the finish of the men's sprint and main race.

So it was just unlucky that the finish to the main race included
participants from a shorter event, as Osgood described? Nothing could
have been done about that....or was that anticipated and thought to be
fine?

JFT


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I know that one of the organizers told the race director that what had
happened was unacceptable for a race of this nature and aspirations. I
don't know but assume some of the 1500 others outside the org who had
registered also did.

GG

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:00:02 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:
Last year the cancellation was way
too late and probably lots of people complained.

Probably.

JFT

Well, just because Mora does, doesn't mean it's right. As I remember,
the 58 km finish at Mora is a klister-fartlek with all the 35 and 42 km
racers involved. Screaming at the slow skiers is about 20% effective.
Similarly, the COLL has the classic race go out first, and that's just
a bad idea from the standpoint of the twisting, single-track hills
alone. At least on the finish they have the _option_ of getting over.

Our mt bike team got together for a meeting on Thr night, and the
consensus was that the COLL organizers were nuts for trying to pull off
a race. If I had talked to you Thr night Nathan, I would have said stay
home. My _guess_ is that John was not sure he could pull off the race,
but he went for it anyway and he put up a challenge to his trail crew.
The fact that the race was actually about 30 km long was due directly
to the volunteer shoveling effort. If only 5 people had showed up to
shovel, racers would have been _really_ ****ed. (Anyone remember Cannon
Falls race...take of the skis and run?) I actually made it through the
whole race without a scratch on my skis, until 50 meters to go. Then I
hit something big and just about corkscrewed into the ground, but it's
amazing what waxing does.

I don't see the weather really changing in Minneapolis in the future.
Ten years ago, we consistently had cold and usually snow. Now...well
we're lucky to get snow and it's really warm by 1970 standards. So
Nathan has a point that COLL maybe shouldn't be on points list. Yeah,
it's a convenient flight stop but our snow sucks.

I think the event should be scaled down to preserve the event. Run
skiers through Wirth Park, maybe _some_ of the hills, and then dump
them on the lake for 10 km for a finish in the same spot. I'm betting
the twisting hills this year were exciting for wave 1 skiers, and death
defying for everyone else. I heard people were walking down hills. I
would think that they were scraped to ice for waves 2-7, and without
ice, I felt pretty good about not going down. Screamers (with people
warning you to be careful on this next hill).

I don't want to kick people in the teeth. There were things that were
done right, and it's those things people don't notice. I was shocked to
get a great feed at the awards ceremony, and my wife enjoyed a $2
Guiness. Rybek (sp?) screwed up awards, but hey, the Mayor's involved
in our sport so big deal.

Jay Wenner

I think Nathan makes some very good points that both COLL and USSA should
look at for next year. I have no real knowledge of USSA rules but maybe
they should have a section that addresses cancellation or postponement or
expand that section. Who is responsible to make the call when it comes to
points? It probably should be the USSA. Wasn't there an Alaska race this
year in Nov that was a race but not the scheduled Supertour Race? It really
is too bad for people like Kate and Nathan who are in the hunt for points
and the dollars, however small, that come with them. I think if you let the
race organizer decide if there will be a race and USSA decide if there will
be points, they both get off the hook at least a little.

DMK

"Nathan Schultz" wrote in message
ups.com...
Yes I am whining, but here is why. Don't get me wrong, COLL organizers
put in a tremendous amount of work, but they have screwed elite racers
over two years in a row. We spend a lot of our own money to travel and
while it may be inconvenient for locals when last-minute changes are
announced, it wastes days of traveling and hundreds of dollars for us
when changes are made like this. I'm not asking for them to cancel the
race completely, but they are on the Supertour, and when things are in
jeopardy and last-minute changes are going to be made, they need to
cancel the race's designation as a points race in a series.

Last year I had a ticket that took me from the finish at the Boulder
Mountain Tour held Saturday morning at 10AM that went to Minneapolis
and arrived 10PM that night so I could do the COLL the next day. I had
spoken to the race organizers in person and was assured that the race
was going to happen. When I arrived in Minneapolis, it was obvious the
race would not happen. A $600 plane ticket, race organizers say,
"sorry".

This year, the race was postponed on Monday(?) and in small print they
said "an official announcement" will be made Feb 1, which was
Wednesday. This was an official announcement made on the COLL web site
and reported at other outlets. Being stupid enough to try Boulder/COLL
again, I had another $600 ticket that would get me from the Boulder
Mountain Tour to Minneapolis in time to do the race. Not wishing to
make a swing trip to Minneapolis to spend the night in a hotel then fly
home, I spent several hours and several hundred dollars re-routing my
ticket. Since it was so close to my travel date, I had to fly into
Boise and drive to Sun Valley instead of fly there, and my ticket was
still $500. Then they announce Wednesday that there will be "some sort
of race" and pleaded with people to come out and shovel.

By this time, many of the racers on the Supertour (who are trying to
compete in an important overall series competition) had left
Minneapolis trying to find another race where they could make some
money. My teammate Kate Whitcomb drove to Sun Valley from Wisconsin.
She couldn't afford a plane ticket and by the time they announced the
race was on, she was 1000 miles away with no way to get back. She is
fighting for the Overall points in the Supertour, so all of a sudden,
she is missing two points races

I don't have a problem with them holding the race, I think it is great
they did. But they should have canceled the Supertour standing. If
that is whining, then there are a lot of others out there doing it,
too.

-Nathan
www.teamfsx.com
www.natronnordic.com

"Nathan Schultz" wrote in message
ups.com...
This year, the race was postponed on Monday(?) and in small print they
said "an official announcement" will be made Feb 1, which was
Wednesday.

I took a look at the annoucement. In part it stated on 1/27:

"After the initial shock of the warm weather, the Loppet organization
has come up with a plan. If there is no new snow between now and Loppet
weekend, the event will be postponed until February 18 and 19. A final
decision on whether to proceed or to postpone will be made by
Wednesday, February 1, 2006. This decision will be based primarily on
snowfall - or the likelihood of more snowfall - by February 2,
2006."

Complete post: http://www.skinnyski.com/racing/display.asp?Id=4158

On Tues 1/31, MPLS got an inch of snow, ok, maybe it was two inches,
and on 2/1 they announced the race was a go. The problem was that all
the skiers in town _assumed_ it would be a definite _no go_. The xc
community is small and word travels fast, so I'm _assuming_ (grin) that
out of town skiers were influenced by word of mouth.

Jay Wenner

Having the finish on the wider streets might have alleviated some of
the problems caused by having to pass tourists and classic skiers, but
not most of them. The finish is where it counts the most, but we (the
lead group) started passing those people with 20k to go. That's a lot
of weaving, especially between Wirth Lake and 394 where it's barely
wide enough for one skater. At least I wasn't at the front of the
women's race, having to fight my way through tourists, classic racers
and elite wave men who were getting caught. The classic skiers and
tourists all did their best to get out of the way. From what I saw of
the women's finish, the men they were finishing with were going for the
line just as hard as the women were.

I'm not faulting the men for racing, but it's not fair to anyone racing
for a race win, USSA and FIS points, SuperTour points and a paycheck
(there's a big difference between first and second) to not have a clean
shot at the finish. I expect a higher level of professionalism out of a
national caliber race than I would out of a club race, regional race or
regional marathon. If this were to be a SuperTour again I would hope to
see the start order be something like this. I think this would prevent
just about all of the congestion that plagued the race. And definitely
the Lake St/Hennepin finish would help too. Even if the urban slalom
was kinda fun...

Elite Men's wave (top 30 or 50 or everybody under a certain USSA/FIS
point cut-off), followed 5 minutes later by the Elite Women, same sort
of cut-off. Then run everybody else. If you don't want to leave people
without good USSA/FIS points out of the Elite wave, don't score the
race and don't make it a SuperTour.

Nathan, does the COLL really control the Supertour points eligibility or
is that under the control of the Supertour organizers? I still don't
get why you didn't call John Munger directly one or more times as
necessary. You have too much at stake not to be assertive.

Glad you had the announcements, Jay. I wasn't the only one disappointed
among the organizers, having already made weekend plans to ski the
Birkie trail. However, once we changed direction I don't think anyone
ever thought that the shoveling effort would fail. The worry was more
the predicted 40F Thursday that turned into something more. That
probably hurt the course more than the paucity of snow itself.

Among the many war stories I heard talking to friends and getting
people on buses afterward, the harshest comments were that John and
Piotr should now have to go ski the course. Most comments were that
the hills were icy, but more than that it was the trees at the bottom
that made them particularly scary. We have a natural tendency to avoid
trees and such, but on ice and in fright it's harder to keep them
peripheral to one's attention. Parts of the course were a real test
of nerves.

Jay and Nathan (and anyone else), I encourage you to pass along your
comments - good, bad and ugly - directly to John Munger
). I wasn't on the course this year and
so have no opinion, but I said my piece last year about this and other
(continuing) organizing issues and got the MN treatment. A good
regional discussion seems in order.

Gene

"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote:

"Nathan Schultz" wrote in message
ups.com...
This year, the race was postponed on Monday(?) and in small print
they said "an official announcement" will be made Feb 1, which was
Wednesday.

I took a look at the annoucement. In part it stated on 1/27:

"After the initial shock of the warm weather, the Loppet organization
has come up with a plan. If there is no new snow between now and
Loppet weekend, the event will be postponed until February 18 and 19.
A final decision on whether to proceed or to postpone will be made by
Wednesday, February 1, 2006. This decision will be based primarily on
snowfall - or the likelihood of more snowfall - by February 2,
2006."

Complete post: http://www.skinnyski.com/racing/display.asp?Id=4158

On Tues 1/31, MPLS got an inch of snow, ok, maybe it was two inches,
and on 2/1 they announced the race was a go. The problem was that all
the skiers in town _assumed_ it would be a definite _no go_. The xc
community is small and word travels fast, so I'm _assuming_ (grin)
that out of town skiers were influenced by word of mouth.

Jay Wenner

First of all I'm a beginner. I just started skiing. On the day of the
COLL I had my skis a grand total of one month. In fact, Liebsch
graciously gave me a ski lesson about three weeks ago without which I
wouldn't have been able to finish.

I finished #603 and was on my butt at least six times during the race.
Twice I walked down the hills and twice I made a decision to go
straight and not try the turn. There was a lot of ice on the bottoms
of hills and there were sections where course marshalls were providing
instruction on how to make the turns. At the start of the final
downhill before 394 one volunteer was actively shovelling in between
skiers.

Then there were the unexpected icy spots with no warning where I saw
many people lose it at the same spot. It was like watching an instant
replay. I stopped at the top of every hill and waited until 4-5 skiers
had successfully skied down before I started my descent.

I thought all this was just part of skiing.

Kuan


Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Nathan, does the COLL really control the Supertour points eligibility or
is that under the control of the Supertour organizers? I still don't
get why you didn't call John Munger directly one or more times as
necessary. You have too much at stake not to be assertive.

Glad you had the announcements, Jay. I wasn't the only one disappointed
among the organizers, having already made weekend plans to ski the
Birkie trail. However, once we changed direction I don't think anyone
ever thought that the shoveling effort would fail. The worry was more
the predicted 40F Thursday that turned into something more. That
probably hurt the course more than the paucity of snow itself.

Among the many war stories I heard talking to friends and getting
people on buses afterward, the harshest comments were that John and
Piotr should now have to go ski the course. Most comments were that
the hills were icy, but more than that it was the trees at the bottom
that made them particularly scary. We have a natural tendency to avoid
trees and such, but on ice and in fright it's harder to keep them
peripheral to one's attention. Parts of the course were a real test
of nerves.

Jay and Nathan (and anyone else), I encourage you to pass along your
comments - good, bad and ugly - directly to John Munger
). I wasn't on the course this year and
so have no opinion, but I said my piece last year about this and other
(continuing) organizing issues and got the MN treatment. A good
regional discussion seems in order.

Gene

"Bjorn A. Payne Diaz" wrote:

"Nathan Schultz" wrote in message
ups.com...
This year, the race was postponed on Monday(?) and in small print
they said "an official announcement" will be made Feb 1, which was
Wednesday.

I took a look at the annoucement. In part it stated on 1/27:

"After the initial shock of the warm weather, the Loppet organization
has come up with a plan. If there is no new snow between now and
Loppet weekend, the event will be postponed until February 18 and 19.
A final decision on whether to proceed or to postpone will be made by
Wednesday, February 1, 2006. This decision will be based primarily on
snowfall - or the likelihood of more snowfall - by February 2,
2006."

Complete post: http://www.skinnyski.com/racing/display.asp?Id=4158

On Tues 1/31, MPLS got an inch of snow, ok, maybe it was two inches,
and on 2/1 they announced the race was a go. The problem was that all
the skiers in town _assumed_ it would be a definite _no go_. The xc
community is small and word travels fast, so I'm _assuming_ (grin)
that out of town skiers were influenced by word of mouth.

Jay Wenner

Lots of discussion about COLL, Marsh Jones offered a thoughtful report
on a Twin Cities skiers newsgroup that has prompted me to offer a view
from the back of the pack. First, I will agree with the premise that
portions of this course might be too tight and narrow for a full size
race. As I'm not that familiar with the various sections and cannot
identify what other course options are available I don't have a
solution. I do know that much of the new area was in response to
complaints about too much time on the lakes, boring, no place to rest
as you are always hammering.etc.

I had planned on doing this classic style but changed at the last
minute. When I picked up my bib I was dismayed to see that they had put
me in wave 7, all the way in the back, bummer as I'm sure my results
and skills should have put me in wave 6 :-). Marsh is right saying that
some of the hills in the tight sections were almost unskiable by the
time I got there. After going down on the first four hills in the
wooded section, a couple of times on purpose to avoid a close encounter
with a tree, I ended up walking down the last two. Looking at my pace
and where others finished I figured I lost about 10 minutes in this
walking/falling section.

But folks, if you are not up front it is not unusual to have very icy
turns and large berms to ski on or around during the downhills. In
average snow years the American Birkie has many icy corners on the
downhill where snow has been scraped down to base. The week before COLL
I was fortunate to be in Italy for the 33rd running of the Italian
Worldloppet Race the Marcialonga. As I was doing the shorter race(45K)
I was put in the back wave. Instead of tight tracks with trees going
through the numerous small towns we had several winding downhills that
were through alleys and narrow streets with buildings on each side. As
in COLL the tracks were down to ice and falling and recovering were
part of the game. Here is a big difference, at COLL as we were waiting
in line to climb or waiting in line to go down and fall I heard a fair
amount of grumbling and serious impatience. In Italy I never heard an
angry word, or at least one that sounded angry. People were laughing
and talking and helping each other up after falls. There was one
stretch that I think will forever be embedded in my memory. As all of
us were walking up a fairly steep section that had turned to glare ice
carrying our skis a couple guys next to me started singing, pretty soon
the whole crowd was singing at the top of their lungs. As I did not
know the words or the music I just stood there taking it all in and
marveling about the attitude that was on display...nothing but grins
and laughter about the conditions that we were facing.

In contrast, at the start of the COLL as we headed up the hill a guy to
the right of me went down as someone stepped on his pole. He let loose
with a torrent of obscenities as he scrambled to get up. He then
started to really thrash up the hill and got tangled up with another
skier and went down again, all this in the first 100yards. Once again
was screaming at he guy he tangled with. As I went by I just looked at
him and said "Hey, your in the 7th wave.. lighten up...that got me a
glare in response.

The point I'm trying to make here is that your outlook on these kinds
of things in a race make a huge difference in how well you enjoy it.
Not that problems don't need solutions but on race day stuff that
happens is all part of the event....but please remember, this is a back
of the pack view. The issues that Nathan and other raise clearly come
from a different perspective.

I thought 90% of the course was fine skiing and like Marsh and Lou
Chounard I had a chance to push it after we crossed I- 394. You read
that right we do cross an Interstate highway, how often do you do that
in a race. I was able to pass a number of people coming in from that
point (including my personal thrasher from the start, I gotta admit I
enjoyed that).

Here is what I think John Munger and COLLOC did very well

1. Letting us know that they WERE CONSIDERING postponing the race a
couple of weeks. I appreciate being kept informed about their thinking.

2. Making the call as they said they would on Wednesday. This took a
lot of courage to make a stand and say this is a go and then marshaling
the tremendous volunteer response to make it happen. The easy decision
would have been a postponement. Our season is so short that any
cancellation is a big deal, there is no guarantee that the snow would
be any better in a couple of weeks.

3. Gene Goldenfeld was in charge of transportation and logistics
(busing and parking) and this was world class. I was on a bus, with dry
clothes, heading back to the lot within 10 minutes of finishing. The
excitement and buzz on my bus about was all positive, people were so
pumped it was actually a little too loud to talk comfortably.

4. Making arrangements for classic skiers to switch at the last minute
due to course conditions (try this at the Birkie). This kind of
flexibility is unheard of at big races.

5. I think that they were very clear about conditions and sketchy
areas. I went into this with the full knowledge that this could be
difficult in sections and some might make a decision to forgo this race
due to potential problems. Munger and Bruce Adelsman went to great
lengths to provide updated condition reports all week.

Finally, I think one of my best memories of this race occurred at the
last downhill coming out of the woods before the 394 crossing. Earlier
in this area I had spotted Piotr, one of the organizers, helping people
at the top of a hill. My first thought was how cool is it that he is
out here with the 7th wavers. So at the top of the last hill I see
Corey Brinkema, another of the organizers, shoveling snow so that we
could ride the berm safely down. Later I found out that Corey had had
done the classic race (fast) and was out here in his warmup suit trying
to make this work for the last 100 or so skiers. Way over and above.

Personally, after working closely with John Munger as part of the
National Masters last year I have found him to be open and willing to
listen to ideas. As Gene and Marsh said I would encourage all to
provide feedback to the organizers, like Marsh indicated though I would
give them a little time to decompress. All US upper midwest skiers who
like to ski in the marathons have a stake in this race thriving.

I did the Birkie in it's 4th year and also the Noqemenon in years 2 and
3 and both had huge problems. Sometime ask me about the carnage that
occurred coming down the back of Mt. Telemark. It always takes a while
for a big race to work out all of the kinks and bugs. Add that to the
complexity of having a point to point race in an urban setting.

All through the race I was marveling at how cool it was to be doing
this in the middle of the city....

John O'Connell