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"Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for low popularity?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 16th 08, 05:42 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
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Posts: 121
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for low popularity?

Just wondering...

Does any other sport have this much MYSTERY behind the podium? I mean,
mysterious to EVERYONE involved.

Even the top skiers and teams aren't sure from race to race or skier
to skier or heat to heat how their skis will run. When a nation's ski
crew finds (stumbles on?) the secret to fast, or the fastest, skis of
the day what does that do to the chances for results for their team?
When for "mysterious reason X" a good team with top skiers blows the
wax, what happens to their results?

How close are the top finishers to each other anyway and what kind of
role does ski speed play? Kind of a rhetorical question, I suppose.
The top skiers are VERY close and "goodness" of ski seems both
CRITICAL and UNDETERMINABLE.

No one knows how race-horses are going to feel on a given day, I
suppose---but then it's a horse race not a jockey race.

Runners, cyclists and paddlesport athletes don't get much benefit from
their gear relative to other elites. Sometimes a cyclist might---but
then they tend to know it ahead of time---their secret weapon. Same
with sailing races. In HPV racing, the bikes vary hugely and some
really come on strong, but again, this is somewhat known by the team
ahead of time and other teams can then imitate it if they like. It's
so much more predictable.

Ski quality and waxing in XC still seems so darn mysterious!

....Is this of any benefit or deterence to public appreciation of the
sport? I'd think it would THROW OFF the public. If they ever get wind
of it, it's only confusing to them and somewhat deflating.
Ads
  #2  
Old March 16th 08, 09:24 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
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Posts: 137
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 16, 10:42*am, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote:
Just wondering...

Does any other sport have this much MYSTERY behind the podium? I mean,
mysterious to EVERYONE involved.

Even the top skiers and teams aren't sure from race to race or skier
to skier or heat to heat how their skis will run. When a nation's ski
crew finds (stumbles on?) the secret to fast, or the fastest, skis of
the day what does that do to the chances for results for their team?
When for "mysterious reason X" a good team with top skiers blows the
wax, what happens to their results?

How close are the top finishers to each other anyway and what kind of
role does ski speed play? Kind of a rhetorical question, I suppose.
The top skiers are VERY close and "goodness" of ski seems both
CRITICAL and UNDETERMINABLE.

No one knows how race-horses are going to feel on a given day, I
suppose---but then it's a horse race not a jockey race.

Runners, cyclists and paddlesport athletes don't get much benefit from
their gear relative to other elites. Sometimes a cyclist might---but
then they tend to know it ahead of time---their secret weapon. Same
with sailing races. In HPV racing, the bikes vary hugely and some
really come on strong, but again, this is somewhat known by the team
ahead of time and other teams can then imitate it if they like. It's
so much more predictable.

Ski quality and waxing in XC still seems so darn mysterious!

...Is this of any benefit or deterence to public appreciation of the
sport? I'd think it would THROW OFF the public. If they ever get wind
of it, it's only confusing to them and somewhat deflating.


Dude tell me about it. I had the longest run...like 8 years when I
would always have the slowest skis in a race. Even when training my
skis would always run slower than fellow skiers. I was having so many
race days were I was getting ski suck and everyone would blow past me
on the downhills. I started reading it as a Karma or Voodoo thing. I
mean holly crap what the hell could it be? It became a self fullfilled
prophecy were I would anticipate before a race that I was hosed. I
turned my attention to my brushes, the way I waxed, the temp I waxed
ect..it was a nightmare. Recently it has somewhat diminished in
occurences. It happened this year in the opening skate race and than
again in two classic races. The one classic race was on a course which
really favors my strenghts and I've won there 5 times in the past. I
put a huge effort into this one only to know in the end I lost over a
min. because of my skis. Dude if you figure out this dilema let me
know.
  #3  
Old March 16th 08, 10:39 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
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Posts: 121
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 16, 5:24 pm, ADK Skier wrote:
[ ]
Dude tell me about it. I had the longest run...like 8 years when I
would always have the slowest skis in a race.


Ouch! That's terrible! Seems like voodoo for sure. I never did much to
my skis or with wax but I always felt like I had darn good skis. Only
a few times did they suck---and when I did I was indeed OFF THE BACK.
So bad skis can ruin your day.

Darn you must've been a good racer if you won some even with a bad ski
curse.

But even with my good skis, it's all relative---one day my skis were
clearly the best and I kicked major butt in a way that felt like
cheating.

But really I mean to focus on the WC level where less than 1% can
separate the top 10 or some such. Good or bad skis can make the
podium---and even great ski techs can fairly often mess up---and they
don't always know why they do good when they do. It's weird mystery
stuff.
  #4  
Old March 16th 08, 10:47 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Posts: 447
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for low popularity?

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:42:49 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

...Is this of any benefit or deterence to public appreciation of the
sport?


I'd think it would THROW OFF the public. If they ever get wind
of it, it's only confusing to them and somewhat deflating.


I believe glide waxing is less tricky than kick waxing, but apart from
that biathlon is affected by waxing issues, plus little changes in
wind can play a huge role in the sport. And the sport is super
popular in part because of uncertainty.

I think the answer to the question in the subject line has to be no.
  #5  
Old March 17th 08, 01:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 121
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 16, 6:47 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:42:49 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of

OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:
...Is this of any benefit or deterence to public appreciation of the
sport?
I'd think it would THROW OFF the public. If they ever get wind
of it, it's only confusing to them and somewhat deflating.


I believe glide waxing is less tricky than kick waxing


I think I hear both marveling and cursing at the mystery of "fast
skis" coming from WC contenders in both disciplines.

The winner of the skate sprint that Newell got 2nd in clearly had the
fastest skis (by far) in the final and in his post-race interview he
expressed the sense of surprise and mystery that I think I've heard,
oh, dozens of times at the WC level.

Kikkan and Newell both also said they had great skis that day---and
expressed huge gratitude for that---and those were skate races.

I also recall hearing about shockingly bad skis on the US side this
season. I don't have the sense that it's coming only from the classic
side, but maybe it is classic that gets the bad ski woes.

, but apart from
that biathlon is affected by waxing issues, plus little changes in
wind can play a huge role in the sport. And the sport is super
popular in part because of uncertainty.

I think the answer to the question in the subject line has to be no.


Maybe the public likes the fickle finger of fate. So biathlon has
waxing AND wind...man, that must really SUCK sometimes. I suppose what
athletes like and what a crowd likes are different things. Same with
NASCAR.

Maybe wax/wind really doesn't determine the WINNER---those sure seem
to often be consistent. But everyone else sure seems to blow
around...with the wind.
  #6  
Old March 17th 08, 06:07 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 16
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 16, 6:42 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote:
Just wondering...

Does any other sport have this much MYSTERY behind the podium? I mean,
mysterious to EVERYONE involved.


It's not all that much of a mystery as it might look from outside.
Nowadays service teams are so big, and they test so much, that it's
quite hard to miss right wax. On top of that, teams have same waxes,
they test on same tracks and they never start testing 2 hours before
race. And I'm speaking from my personal experience... even if they are
about 10 years old now

Of course it can happen that they miss, but it's very very rarely. For
someone out of WC business, these things might look as mystery, but in
reality it's not all that complicated. Even if skiers complain about
skis, it's more likely wrong skis then wrong wax. And with that, quite
often wax technicians have nothing to do. Because more often then you
would believe, skiers choose "best" skis based on their feeling (even
if quite few of them have no feeling for skis), then on test results.
Even if it sounds unbelievable, they actually do this, and being at
least a bit superstitious, doesn't help either with such decisions.
Unfortunately I was long enough in this business, to see all sort of
such things.

And on the end, you can't really compare someone, with years of
experience doing this every day for 250 days a year, with some hobby
skier, who is waxing his skis (probably with some more or less
universal stone grind) with limited supply and assortment of waxes,
and with almost no knowledge and also virtually no snow and weather
data.

Take care,
Primoz
http://www.photo.si
  #7  
Old March 17th 08, 01:18 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 121
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 17, 2:07 am, wrote:
On Mar 16, 6:42 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"

wrote:
Just wondering...


Does any other sport have this much MYSTERY behind the podium? I mean,
mysterious to EVERYONE involved.


It's not all that much of a mystery as it might look from outside.
Nowadays service teams are so big, and they test so much, that it's
quite hard to miss right wax. On top of that, teams have same waxes,

[ ]
reality it's not all that complicated. Even if skiers complain about
skis, it's more likely wrong skis then wrong wax. And with that, quite

[ ]
Primozhttp://www.photo.si


Thanks, Primoz... So it's skis that are the mystery more than the wax.
Well, both losses and victories at the top level seem to get the
"great skis" or "rats we had bad skis" remarks. I could see it being a
common excuse but I also hear it for the wins. And when you see the
skiers just gliding away from everyone you know something is up in
terms of the "mystery of great skis"---especially when they marvel
about it afterward---see the interview with the winner after Newell's
2nd place sprint, see Kikkan's remarks. One wonders what a more level
playing field would do. Of course one may not always SEE how good or
bad a ski is from watching a video---someone with great skis may hold
themselves back until time for a final move. Newell had great skis
that day, too---and was near back of pack a lot.

Although because the suits seemed design to CAMOFLAGE the racers I
never really did know who he was while I watched the race! The amount
of major color in the suits plus the stripes make several of them just
blur together.

I wonder if distinctive suits---and attractive ones---would help in
PR. I suppose it's a common refrain.
  #8  
Old March 18th 08, 12:23 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 59
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

It would seem the serious would have a dozen pairs of skis all waxed
slightly differently and then tested on the snow of the day!
gr


I'd prefer to have a dozen pairs of slightly different flex/structure,
all waxed the same.
Of course, serious contenders will have both : i.e. two dozen
pairs...

By the way, given numerous times we have seen dirty snow this season,
I'd be curious to know if kuzmin "no-wax" approach has been
successfully tested..

  #9  
Old March 20th 08, 08:45 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 16
Default "Good skis" seem to determine the podium: recipe for lowpopularity?

On Mar 17, 2:18 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote:
On Mar 17, 2:07 am, wrote:



On Mar 16, 6:42 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"


wrote:
Just wondering...


Does any other sport have this much MYSTERY behind the podium? I mean,
mysterious to EVERYONE involved.


It's not all that much of a mystery as it might look from outside.
Nowadays service teams are so big, and they test so much, that it's
quite hard to miss right wax. On top of that, teams have same waxes,

[ ]
reality it's not all that complicated. Even if skiers complain about
skis, it's more likely wrong skis then wrong wax. And with that, quite

[ ]
Primozhttp://www.photo.si


Thanks, Primoz... So it's skis that are the mystery more than the wax.
Well, both losses and victories at the top level seem to get the
"great skis" or "rats we had bad skis" remarks. I could see it being a
common excuse but I also hear it for the wins. And when you see the
skiers just gliding away from everyone you know something is up in
terms of the "mystery of great skis"---especially when they marvel
about it afterward---see the interview with the winner after Newell's
2nd place sprint, see Kikkan's remarks. One wonders what a more level
playing field would do. Of course one may not always SEE how good or
bad a ski is from watching a video---someone with great skis may hold
themselves back until time for a final move. Newell had great skis
that day, too---and was near back of pack a lot.


Right structure and right skis definitely play bigger role then right
wax. As I wrote before, right wax is not really all that hard to find,
right structure on the other side is different thing. I mean it's
still not rocket science, but it's harder to get right one, then
getting right wax.
But you can't really compare how fast skis are when just watching
races on tv, or even live at track. There's way too much of things
behind this, to tell if someone has faster or slower skis, then
someone else. Someone can be skiing behind, and wind could be much
stronger then it looks from tv. One could push once more on top of
hill then the other, then there's weight difference, position is
different etc. etc.
I'm still not saying that skis don't play any role in winning or
losing. They do, but on top level, difference between skis (and waxes)
is not all that big as it's on lower level races. On WC pretty much
everyone has perfect skis. Of course there are days when it's hard to
get right wax/skis, but those days and such conditions are quite rare.
And with number of technicians in team and all those hours they test,
such days get even more rare.


Take care,
Primoz
http://www.photo.si
 




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