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Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 11th 08, 09:34 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base, stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that
builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing
excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear) I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that be enough to remove oxidation? its a pretty soft brush! I was also thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often. Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed
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  #2  
Old March 11th 08, 11:59 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
ADK Skier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

On Mar 11, 2:34*pm, Ed Miller wrote:
Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base,
stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing
the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting
the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that

builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing

excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear)
I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon
combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the
bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper
and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that
be enough to remove oxidation? *its a pretty soft brush! *I was also
thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this
purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to
time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often.
Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the
coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better
shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed

--
Ed Miller


I've been puzzled by the use of metal brushes. You would think they
would be superior in lifting off oxidation and opening the pores of
the base. However, the top stone grinders say not to touch a stone
ground base with any metal brushes. I would email Ian at www.tokous.com
and ask him. He has been really helpful in answering several of my
uestions about bases and waxing.
  #3  
Old March 12th 08, 05:47 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

Given what you have, I'd brush a bit with the copper, giving it some
force, then do a couple of passes with yellow or a base prep,
scraping/wiping hot and then brushing in between. Keep the scraper very
sharp. As a first step, I've done a couple of light passes with the
Swix razor-like blade (with blue handle) successfully, but don't see it
listed anymore.

One thing about the Salomon skis, expect your scraper to come up black,
as if you're taking off P-tex, which you are. There's something wierd
about their bases (and their classical skis) that sends me another
direction, but a lot of people below the WC level like them - or
appreciate the sponsorship.

rm


Ed Miller wrote:


Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base,
stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing
the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting
the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that

builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing

excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear)
I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon
combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the
bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper
and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that
be enough to remove oxidation? its a pretty soft brush! I was also
thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this
purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to
time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often.
Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the
coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better
shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed




--
Ed Miller

  #4  
Old March 12th 08, 02:57 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Zach Caldwell[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

Provided these are Amer (Atomic)-produced skis, then what they need
more than anything is time. The base is quite hardened by the factory
grind process. Brushing with aggressive metal brushes will only abrade
the surface and make it worse to deal with. It doesn't make sense to
try to "open the pores" with a brush - it just plain doesn't happen.

The warm base material itself is not hard to work with on those skis
(unlike the cold base, which is very hard). The factory finish is
really difficult to deal with. However, it's MUCH easier to work with
a ski that's seen a couple of months worth of waxing and skiing than a
brand-new ski. I would just start waxing it and keep waxing it. You
don't need to do anything extreme, just work on it normally. It's not
a question of saturating the base - that's easy to do quickly on a
healthy and open base. It's a question of softening the surface. The
base you've got is kind of like a scab. You don't want to rip it off -
you just want to gently soften it until it dissolves.

There is not likely to be any surface oxidation. Some pollution
(dirt), for sure. They buff-on a moly-based wax in the factory to make
the bases look kind of shiny, and that'll make things (wax scrapings)
look pretty dirty for a while. It'll all clean-up and soften and
smooth-out after about 50 waxings. The more scraping and regular
brushing you do the better it'll get. When the base starts to look
dull and feel a bit grabby when you're scraping soft paraffin, then
start putting in some harder paraffins. When the harder paraffins
don't seem to change the surface anymore, go back to some softer
paraffins. By the time you go back to harder paraffins the second time
you'll probably have a race-worthy base.

If you try to hurry this process up too much by shaving or aggressive
brushing you'll probably end up wanting to regrind the ski.

ZC


On Mar 11, 9:47 pm, wrote:
Given what you have, I'd brush a bit with the copper, giving it some
force, then do a couple of passes with yellow or a base prep,
scraping/wiping hot and then brushing in between. Keep the scraper very
sharp. As a first step, I've done a couple of light passes with the
Swix razor-like blade (with blue handle) successfully, but don't see it
listed anymore.

One thing about the Salomon skis, expect your scraper to come up black,
as if you're taking off P-tex, which you are. There's something wierd
about their bases (and their classical skis) that sends me another
direction, but a lot of people below the WC level like them - or
appreciate the sponsorship.

rm

Ed Miller wrote:

Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base,
stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing
the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting
the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that


builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing


excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear)
I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon
combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the
bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper
and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that
be enough to remove oxidation? its a pretty soft brush! I was also
thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this
purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to
time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often.
Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the
coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better
shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed


--
Ed Miller


  #5  
Old March 12th 08, 04:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Camilo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

On Mar 12, 6:57 am, Zach Caldwell wrote:
Provided these are Amer (Atomic)-produced skis, then what they need
more than anything is time. The base is quite hardened by the factory
grind process. Brushing with aggressive metal brushes will only abrade
the surface and make it worse to deal with. It doesn't make sense to
try to "open the pores" with a brush - it just plain doesn't happen.

The warm base material itself is not hard to work with on those skis
(unlike the cold base, which is very hard). The factory finish is
really difficult to deal with. However, it's MUCH easier to work with
a ski that's seen a couple of months worth of waxing and skiing than a
brand-new ski. I would just start waxing it and keep waxing it. You
don't need to do anything extreme, just work on it normally. It's not
a question of saturating the base - that's easy to do quickly on a
healthy and open base. It's a question of softening the surface. The
base you've got is kind of like a scab. You don't want to rip it off -
you just want to gently soften it until it dissolves.

There is not likely to be any surface oxidation. Some pollution
(dirt), for sure. They buff-on a moly-based wax in the factory to make
the bases look kind of shiny, and that'll make things (wax scrapings)
look pretty dirty for a while. It'll all clean-up and soften and
smooth-out after about 50 waxings. The more scraping and regular
brushing you do the better it'll get. When the base starts to look
dull and feel a bit grabby when you're scraping soft paraffin, then
start putting in some harder paraffins. When the harder paraffins
don't seem to change the surface anymore, go back to some softer
paraffins. By the time you go back to harder paraffins the second time
you'll probably have a race-worthy base.

If you try to hurry this process up too much by shaving or aggressive
brushing you'll probably end up wanting to regrind the ski.

ZC


Zack - for those of us who are just serious recreational skiers and
for whom "50 waxings" is extremely, er, extreme to get a ski in shape,
is a fresh stone grinding a reasonable short cut? For me, spending $50
on a fresh grind and hotbox is a very reasonable alternative to all
the work you're talking about. I've had (for my purposes!) excellent
skis pretty quickly doing that.

  #6  
Old March 12th 08, 07:55 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Zach Caldwell[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

On Mar 12, 8:44 am, Camilo wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:57 am, Zach Caldwell wrote:



Provided these are Amer (Atomic)-produced skis, then what they need
more than anything is time. The base is quite hardened by the factory
grind process. Brushing with aggressive metal brushes will only abrade
the surface and make it worse to deal with. It doesn't make sense to
try to "open the pores" with a brush - it just plain doesn't happen.


The warm base material itself is not hard to work with on those skis
(unlike the cold base, which is very hard). The factory finish is
really difficult to deal with. However, it's MUCH easier to work with
a ski that's seen a couple of months worth of waxing and skiing than a
brand-new ski. I would just start waxing it and keep waxing it. You
don't need to do anything extreme, just work on it normally. It's not
a question of saturating the base - that's easy to do quickly on a
healthy and open base. It's a question of softening the surface. The
base you've got is kind of like a scab. You don't want to rip it off -
you just want to gently soften it until it dissolves.


There is not likely to be any surface oxidation. Some pollution
(dirt), for sure. They buff-on a moly-based wax in the factory to make
the bases look kind of shiny, and that'll make things (wax scrapings)
look pretty dirty for a while. It'll all clean-up and soften and
smooth-out after about 50 waxings. The more scraping and regular
brushing you do the better it'll get. When the base starts to look
dull and feel a bit grabby when you're scraping soft paraffin, then
start putting in some harder paraffins. When the harder paraffins
don't seem to change the surface anymore, go back to some softer
paraffins. By the time you go back to harder paraffins the second time
you'll probably have a race-worthy base.


If you try to hurry this process up too much by shaving or aggressive
brushing you'll probably end up wanting to regrind the ski.


ZC


Zack - for those of us who are just serious recreational skiers and
for whom "50 waxings" is extremely, er, extreme to get a ski in shape,
is a fresh stone grinding a reasonable short cut? For me, spending $50
on a fresh grind and hotbox is a very reasonable alternative to all
the work you're talking about. I've had (for my purposes!) excellent
skis pretty quickly doing that.



For sure, a fresh grind is the fastest way to bring a pair like that
up to speed. Most of the work is just trying to undo sub-par factory
grind work.

ZC
  #7  
Old March 13th 08, 03:05 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

Thanks for correcting me. No wonder my skis are slow.

rm


Zach Caldwell wrote:

Provided these are Amer (Atomic)-produced skis, then what they need
more than anything is time. The base is quite hardened by the factory
grind process. Brushing with aggressive metal brushes will only abrade
the surface and make it worse to deal with. It doesn't make sense to
try to "open the pores" with a brush - it just plain doesn't happen.

The warm base material itself is not hard to work with on those skis
(unlike the cold base, which is very hard). The factory finish is
really difficult to deal with. However, it's MUCH easier to work with
a ski that's seen a couple of months worth of waxing and skiing than a
brand-new ski. I would just start waxing it and keep waxing it. You
don't need to do anything extreme, just work on it normally. It's not
a question of saturating the base - that's easy to do quickly on a
healthy and open base. It's a question of softening the surface. The
base you've got is kind of like a scab. You don't want to rip it off -
you just want to gently soften it until it dissolves.

There is not likely to be any surface oxidation. Some pollution
(dirt), for sure. They buff-on a moly-based wax in the factory to make
the bases look kind of shiny, and that'll make things (wax scrapings)
look pretty dirty for a while. It'll all clean-up and soften and
smooth-out after about 50 waxings. The more scraping and regular
brushing you do the better it'll get. When the base starts to look
dull and feel a bit grabby when you're scraping soft paraffin, then
start putting in some harder paraffins. When the harder paraffins
don't seem to change the surface anymore, go back to some softer
paraffins. By the time you go back to harder paraffins the second time
you'll probably have a race-worthy base.

If you try to hurry this process up too much by shaving or aggressive
brushing you'll probably end up wanting to regrind the ski.

ZC


On Mar 11, 9:47 pm, wrote:
Given what you have, I'd brush a bit with the copper, giving it some
force, then do a couple of passes with yellow or a base prep,
scraping/wiping hot and then brushing in between. Keep the scraper very
sharp. As a first step, I've done a couple of light passes with the
Swix razor-like blade (with blue handle) successfully, but don't see it
listed anymore.

One thing about the Salomon skis, expect your scraper to come up black,
as if you're taking off P-tex, which you are. There's something wierd
about their bases (and their classical skis) that sends me another
direction, but a lot of people below the WC level like them - or
appreciate the sponsorship.

rm

Ed Miller wrote:

Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base,
stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing
the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting
the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that


builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing


excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear)
I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon
combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the
bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper
and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that
be enough to remove oxidation? its a pretty soft brush! I was also
thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this
purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to
time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often.
Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the
coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better
shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed


--
Ed Miller


  #8  
Old March 14th 08, 01:02 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
highpeaksnordic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 118
Default Metal Brushes? Preparing new ski base

On Mar 12, 10:57*am, Zach Caldwell wrote:

It'll all clean-up and soften and smooth-out after about 50 waxings.
The more scraping and regular brushing you do the better it'll get.


Zach -

Good to see you posting up again.

How about a long, low temp hotboxing on skis like this? Pretty much
the same effect as multiple wax and scrapes?
Along those lines, are you still using the Star hydrocarbon red for
that? What do you think about the Solda white Thermo Wax,
specifically advertised as being for hotboxing? Worth the extra $$?

- Bob
  #9  
Old March 19th 08, 05:34 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Feb 2007
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Posts: 18
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Miller View Post
Hi, I just got a new pair of Salomon Equipe 10 skate skis (warm base, stiff ski) on end of season special and had a question ab. preparing the base.
What brush would you suggest I use to refresh the base before starting the
softwax process? Something that best removes the surface oxidation that
builds up from sitting in the store for 6-12 months and without causing
excessive scratches or damage to the nice factory grind. (fine linear) I have 3 metal brushes,
a Swix T-158 coarse bronze, a Toko copper and a Swix T-159 brass/nylon combi brush. I was thinking of thinking of five or ten passes with the bronze
(I've used this a lot in the past) and then finishing off with copper and
then some fibertex. What about just using the copper alone would that be enough to remove oxidation? its a pretty soft brush! I was also thinking of buying a steel brush, either fine or medium, for this purpose and also to refresh the bases of my other skis from time to time during the season to minimize having to stonegrind them so often. Do you think I should or is what I have sufficient? Also, should the coarse bronze brush be replaced periodically? (its still in far better shape than I've seen in some wax rooms)
Thanks, Ed

Thanks for all the advice guys!
 




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