What pole design hurts thumbs?

Sources close to the investigation reveal that, on Fri, 18 Mar 2005
18:11:28 -0500, "Ron - NY" wrote:

Note that going strapless is a really really bad idea if you're skiing
terrain where self arrest may be necessary

The things I learn here :-) . What does self arrest mean ?


It's like a citizen's arrest, but you turn yourself in.

Either that, or it's what you do when you've fallen, you're sliding,
and you won't stop naturally.

--
Bill Griffiths
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no such thing as justice." Hobbes

"toller" wrote in message
...
My wife fell on her thumb a couple year ago and it took many months to
heal. ...

As noted above, there are two primary ways poles create a danger of injury:

1 - You fall on your open hand, with the pole under it. This is how people
hurt their thumbs. The "wrap-around" type grips are actually worse in terms
of this danger, because your pole is stuck to your palm. I think that's the
primary reason nobody makes them anymore.

2 - Your pole basket gets caught on a tree or something, and yanks you. This
is more likely to hurt your shoulder, though it's possible to hurt your
elbow, your wrist or (possibly) your thumb. Current basket designs are a lot
less likely to catch something than older ones. Also, you're not real likely
to catch your pole on a tree unless you're within a foot or two of a tree.
It is possible (though not enormously likely) to catch your basket on other
things, like your own boot buckles, other people's boot buckles, etc. If you
do the latter, you're too close!

If you want to be safest, don't use the "wrap-around" type grips. Instead,
use normal poles, but don't use the straps. As others have mentioned, you
don't need to take the straps off ... just don't put your hand through them.
The only suggestion I'd make if you want to go this way is to look for grips
that have a slight "platform" at the bottom of the grip. Not a necessity,
though.

Slalom handguards are something else entirely. For one thing, they don't
hold your hand against the pole ... if you let go, the pole will fall away
pretty much the way it ordinarily does. The "wrap-around" type grips have no
value as slalom handguards, because they're flexible. Unless you are skiing
a slalom course, I can't think why you'd want slalom handguards, any more
than you'd want shinguards.

I must say I'm pretty surprised that some people don't know the proper way
to use a standard strap (hand goes up through the strap from underneath, so
that the strap is held against the pole under the hand). That's seems like
one of those first-day things, like how to sidestep or walk on skis. Skiing
with the strap the other way is sort of like skiing with your coat flapping,
wearing a jester hat or tucking your jeans into your boots.

"sjjohnston" wrote in message
...
"toller" wrote in message
...
My wife fell on her thumb a couple year ago and it took many months to
heal. ...

As noted above, there are two primary ways poles create a danger of
injury:

1 - You fall on your open hand, with the pole under it. This is how people
hurt their thumbs. The "wrap-around" type grips are actually worse in
terms of this danger, because your pole is stuck to your palm. I think
that's the primary reason nobody makes them anymore.

2 - Your pole basket gets caught on a tree or something, and yanks you.
This is more likely to hurt your shoulder, though it's possible to hurt
your elbow, your wrist or (possibly) your thumb. Current basket designs
are a lot less likely to catch something than older ones. Also, you're not
real likely to catch your pole on a tree unless you're within a foot or
two of a tree. It is possible (though not enormously likely) to catch your
basket on other things, like your own boot buckles, other people's boot
buckles, etc. If you do the latter, you're too close!

If you want to be safest, don't use the "wrap-around" type grips. Instead,
use normal poles, but don't use the straps. As others have mentioned, you
don't need to take the straps off ... just don't put your hand through
them. The only suggestion I'd make if you want to go this way is to look
for grips that have a slight "platform" at the bottom of the grip. Not a
necessity, though.

Slalom handguards are something else entirely. For one thing, they don't
hold your hand against the pole ... if you let go, the pole will fall away
pretty much the way it ordinarily does. The "wrap-around" type grips have
no value as slalom handguards, because they're flexible. Unless you are
skiing a slalom course, I can't think why you'd want slalom handguards,
any more than you'd want shinguards.

I must say I'm pretty surprised that some people don't know the proper way
to use a standard strap (hand goes up through the strap from underneath,
so that the strap is held against the pole under the hand). That's seems
like one of those first-day things, like how to sidestep or walk on skis.
Skiing with the strap the other way is sort of like skiing with your coat
flapping, wearing a jester hat or tucking your jeans into your boots.

I would add to the how one hurts their thumb with poles is when you fall and
your thumb is sticking out and the tip of the thumb hits the ground thus
jamming it. This will happen whether you are using the straps or not. I
only strap up if the chances of me falling is great, if the run is really
steep or if the run is really icy. If I fall I won't have to got to far to
get my poles and whatever else falls off.

JQ
Dancing on the edge

"JQ" wrote in message
...

"sjjohnston" wrote in message
...
"toller" wrote in message
...
My wife fell on her thumb a couple year ago and it took many months to
heal. ...

As noted above, there are two primary ways poles create a danger of
injury:

1 - You fall on your open hand, with the pole under it. This is how
people hurt their thumbs. The "wrap-around" type grips are actually worse
in terms of this danger, because your pole is stuck to your palm. I think
that's the primary reason nobody makes them anymore.

2 - Your pole basket gets caught on a tree or something, and yanks you.
This is more likely to hurt your shoulder, though it's possible to hurt
your elbow, your wrist or (possibly) your thumb. Current basket designs
are a lot less likely to catch something than older ones. Also, you're
not real likely to catch your pole on a tree unless you're within a foot
or two of a tree. It is possible (though not enormously likely) to catch
your basket on other things, like your own boot buckles, other people's
boot buckles, etc. If you do the latter, you're too close!

If you want to be safest, don't use the "wrap-around" type grips.
Instead, use normal poles, but don't use the straps. As others have
mentioned, you don't need to take the straps off ... just don't put your
hand through them. The only suggestion I'd make if you want to go this
way is to look for grips that have a slight "platform" at the bottom of
the grip. Not a necessity, though.

Slalom handguards are something else entirely. For one thing, they don't
hold your hand against the pole ... if you let go, the pole will fall
away pretty much the way it ordinarily does. The "wrap-around" type grips
have no value as slalom handguards, because they're flexible. Unless you
are skiing a slalom course, I can't think why you'd want slalom
handguards, any more than you'd want shinguards.

I must say I'm pretty surprised that some people don't know the proper
way to use a standard strap (hand goes up through the strap from
underneath, so that the strap is held against the pole under the hand).
That's seems like one of those first-day things, like how to sidestep or
walk on skis. Skiing with the strap the other way is sort of like skiing
with your coat flapping, wearing a jester hat or tucking your jeans into
your boots.

I would add to the how one hurts their thumb with poles is when you fall
and your thumb is sticking out and the tip of the thumb hits the ground
thus jamming it. This will happen whether you are using the straps or
not. I only strap up if the chances of me falling is great, if the run is
really steep or if the run is really icy. If I fall I won't have to got
to far to get my poles and whatever else falls off.

Okay, but...
It seems to me that when falling, if you have a pole you would tend to grip
it tightly protecting your thumb. I only fall one or twice a season, but I
never lose my poles when I do; so I must be holding on pretty tight. Losing
the pole might lead you to open your hand to try and cushion the impact. I
think that is why there are so many wrist fractures in snowboarders; if they
had their hands in a fist it wouldn't happen because there would be less
leverage.
Obviously it happens too fast for thought, but thats what I think I would do
instinctively. But if I am right, the wrap around poles would be safer.
(yeh, I know, the fact that they are off the market hints strongly that the
statistics are contrary; but you know what Twain said about statistics...)

I thought maybe keeping tight hold of the poles would somehow cause the pole
to torque against the thumb occasionally, but if is that is not the case
then I don't see it.

(snip)

Okay, but...
It seems to me that when falling, if you have a pole you would tend to
grip it tightly protecting your thumb. I only fall one or twice a season,
but I never lose my poles when I do; so I must be holding on pretty tight.
Losing the pole might lead you to open your hand to try and cushion the
impact. I think that is why there are so many wrist fractures in
snowboarders; if they had their hands in a fist it wouldn't happen because
there would be less leverage.
Obviously it happens too fast for thought, but thats what I think I would
do instinctively. But if I am right, the wrap around poles would be
safer. (yeh, I know, the fact that they are off the market hints strongly
that the statistics are contrary; but you know what Twain said about
statistics...)

I thought maybe keeping tight hold of the poles would somehow cause the
pole to torque against the thumb occasionally, but if is that is not the
case then I don't see it.

Yes holding the poles very tight and having torque against the thumb will
cause some thumb damage. Thais why you hold the poles loosely and tighten
as needed. The problem with the wrap around poles is in a quick fall the
wrap around has a greater chance of injuring the wrist than the straps as
they do not lock the wrist by leverage. The reason the snowboarders have
such a high wrist injury is the way they fall versus how skiers fall. If
the boarders kept a fist when they fell on their palms they would still have
the wrist injuries but now they would also have broken fingers too.

JQ
Dancing on the edge

Bob Lee wrote:
Ron - NY wrote:

Note that going strapless is a really really bad idea if you're skiing
terrain where self arrest may be necessary

The things I learn here :-) . What does self arrest mean ?


"To "self arrest" hold a ski pole with one hand on the grip, and slide
the other hand down next to the basket. Tuck the basket in close to your
waist and press the point firmly in to snow to act as a brake."

And FWIW. there are a number of people and references that think going
strapless is the best way to be prepared to *quickly* get into the ski
pole self arrest procedure.

I did not know that.

But please, Bob. Can we henceforth refer to it as "going commando",
not as "strapless"? Much better for my self-image.

"So, which way do you put your wrists through your pole straps?"
"I don't. I go commando."

--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

Bob Lee wrote:
Walt wrote:
Bob Lee wrote:

And FWIW. there are a number of people and references that think going
strapless is the best way to be prepared to *quickly* get into the ski
pole self arrest procedure.


Can we henceforth refer to it as "going commando",
not as "strapless"? Much better for my self-image.

C'mon Walt, it's a good look for you, at least you have the shoulders to
go strapless.

True enough. But the matching pumps hurt my feet, and this business
of removing my armpit hair every ski day is getting tiresome.
Especially on cold days when I have to use the purple wax.


--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy

"sjjohnston" wrote in message
...
As noted above, there are two primary ways poles create a danger of
injury: ....

By which ... I didn't mean to imply that you *won't* hurt your thumb without
poles. It's reasonably easy to hurt your thumb, hand or wrist when falling
forward, even if you don't have poles at all. "Colles fracture" is the name
for the particular type of wrist break that occurs when you fall on your
outstretched hand. It does seem to be more common to snowboarders than
skiers, though I think it has more to do with the prevailing style of fall
than poles or anything like that.

I let go of my poles (without thinking about it) when I fall forward. I
think most people do, though that's obviously conjecture.

Ron - NY wrote:
I like the older ones better too and still have mine even though I use the
newer ones with the straps .

!?
I luv it - "newer ones with the straps."

As you may (or may not) know, there is Nothing New under the sun, all is
recycled. Poles started as a single pole the thickness of closet rod
about 8 feet long, used as a balance beam, or to stop by straddling the
pole hobbie horse style and digging the end in behind you. The
innovation of using two poles and having straps occurred probably
sometime in the 1870s. The goofy plastic wrap around handles were
sometime in the 1970s I think (along with a slew of other 1970s gifts to
humanity, like increased incidence of clap and crabs.) They caused
numerous thumb injuries and largely died out; so naturally they have
been gone long enough to be rediscovered. Beware.

Also note that racers have never used such grips on their poles; instead
being steadfast committed to small grips and straps properly used.

I was on the lift one day with a ski patrol guy
and he told me there is a special way to wrap the strap around your wrist
when gripping the pole but It might not be easy to explain . He said to put
your hand through the strap and instead of just gripping the pole , to put
your hand over the strap so it's between your index finger & thumb and then
grip the pole . If you can make sense of that then your all right . As far
as which is safer for the thumb I'm not sure but it would seem obvious the
older style is , at least to me anyway . I've actually heard of quite a few
people hurting their thumbs with the newer style poles but I don't know if
it's related .

The guy gave you good advice - give it due consideration.

And now that I've dealt with the top posting, I shall inline a couple of
comments.


"toller" wrote in message
...

My wife fell on her thumb a couple year ago and it took many months to
heal. The orthopedist told her to use poles where the grip wraps around
the hand, rather than the kind with straps, to protect her thumb in the
future. The wrap around kind is no longer available, so I have picked
them out of discard piles whenever I see them.

I think your doctor is confused - the wrap-around molded pole grips look
like they might protect the thumb (in fact IIRC the hypothetical thumb
protection was a selling point,) but in reality they contribute to such
injuries which is part of the reason they disappeared from the shops.


I also use the wrap arounds because I don't like the straps, and you can
hook them on the chairlifts rather than hold them. Several people have
noticed mine and said they used to like them also, but they are not
available anymore because they can cause thumb injuries.
Well, that is the exact opposite of what her doctor told her. (and she is
sure she isn't confused on what he told her.)

So, which kind is safer for thumbs? I am not going to change either way,
but she should be using the safer ones. Thanks.

Best protection for the thumb is to keep it wrapped snuggly around the
grip when falling - it's a skill like learning how to fall when learning
judo - after awhile it's automatic. Thumb injuries generally occur from
trying to catch your fall with an open hand after releasing the grip on
the poles.

I don't even like the molded-in lip at the bottom of pole grips, and
spent some effort adapting some racer lipless grips to carbon poles a
few weeks ago so I could toss the lipped grips.

Bob Lee wrote:
Walt wrote:
Bob Lee wrote:

C'mon Walt, it's a good look for you, at least you have the shoulders to
go strapless.

True enough. But the matching pumps hurt my feet, and this business
of removing my armpit hair every ski day is getting tiresome.
Especially on cold days when I have to use the purple wax.

Purple? Most of us use Turtle Wax(tm).

Hey, speak for yourself there, sailor.

--
// Walt
//
// There is no Volkl Conspiracy