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#11
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Skate technique USST two cents
Well it's not just _me_ that's talking about the need to have muscles
actively pushing for skating up hills. Philip Nelson wrote you seem to suffer from the idea that unless muscles are actively pushing, nothing is happening. Pete Vordenberg wrote: The idea in V1 skating is to apply constant power throughout the technique-cycle . . . continuous and even power application by the legs. Philip Nelson wrote: Pete talks about for a very quick application of power . . . Huh? Except of that one Hot Feet drill, all the talk about "quick" in Vordenberg's post was about _poling_. And even the Hot Feet drill continues on to a variation that starts like this: "To achieve a good forward driving position with the leg, slow down the tempo . . . " There was this guy named Thomas Alsgaard who was known for skating with a _smooth_ style, notably not "quick". But Alsgaard did not seem to suffer the deleterious results that Philip claims must follow from the "drawn out" approach. By strange coincidence, Alsgaard using this style achieved better World Cup race results than anybody on the US National Team, now or ever. So I'm not feeling embarrassed about my choice of styles -- though I sometimes am surprised by how poorly I _execute_ some of them in my videos so far. Ken |
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#12
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Skate technique USST two cents
Pete Vordenberg wrote:
If the athlete is "falling away" from their kick in V2 (only kicking with the lower-leg) try this drill. I have a question about the above. What does 'falling away' and 'lower-leg' mean? A bit fuzzy here. First, focus only on initial power. As you ski in the V2 technique simultaneously drop your weight onto the kicking ski and the poles using only the stomach muscles. Begin and end both the kick and pole motions quickly. Hmmm, does this early snappy kick use bigger, upper leg muscles while they're over the ski? Is that the idea? And is the idea that when one doesn't balance on the ski one tends to fall off to the other ski and have a wishy-washy low-leg kick and miss their chance to kick with the big upper muscles? Second, after ten reps, as your speed increases, allow yourself more time to glide, but keep the short dynamic push. For ten reps, count to three on each leg before exploding DOWN onto your poles and skis to transfer your weight to the other ski. Third, as your speed gets higher lengthen the motion but keep the initial power quick. Eliminate the pause on each ski ? and you're skiing. [ ] No matter which style of V1 skating is being used, it is important that the athlete is skating (rather than stepping) up a hill. This matches for me with a report here I read from someone who watched inline racers in a hilly marathon and remarked that they didn't seem to slow down on the uphills or change their technique or body position. No struggling or stepping: just skated up the hill doing correct technique same as everywhere else. I bet it applies to snow, too. In my mind anyway. Someday I'll see how it plays out if I can ever get some ski days in again! : ) ---We just got a LOVELY LOVELY 8" TODAY! And I groomed my skate trails in the lovely lovely dark. Didn't need a headlamp. Overcast but the snow had a nice glow. Saw kids sledding on the hill in the distance. They had one flashlight and didn't mind the dark most of the time either. Snow is nice in the dark. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923 |
#13
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Skate technique USST two cents
Jeff Potter wrote in message
This matches for me with a report here I read from someone who watched inline racers in a hilly marathon and remarked that they didn't seem to slow down on the uphills Wow, that's great Jeff. Just think how fast we could all be if we didn't slow down uphill. JFT |
#14
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Skate technique USST two cents
Hello All-
After months away I stopped back to check out the news group and found this discussion.....WOW! You know, I think that we should all be psyched with Pete posting this stuff on here and not attack him(Yes Ken, that means you). Let me say this: Pete knows more about technique than any of us. PERIOD. He may not make some video or site famous skiers who might illustrate his point, but he is up to date on what is going on. Although we may not have turned out a Thomas Alsgaard yet(and for those of you who actually believe that Thomas Alsgaard didn't have a high turnover, you are WRONG! Thomas just looked smoother because of his size and slightly modified style) we have shown tremendous progress under the new USST regime. Pete is throwing himself out there for all of us to take shots at....but does that really help? Frankly, who are we anyway to go up against him? Pete was one of the best racers in this country for years....he has seen more World Cups and great skiers in person(not on some video) than any of us will ever see. Pete knows what is going on....he might not sit around and debate the physiology of whether muscles are actually be used, but is this REALLY important? Really? I mean come on, do you really actually believe that you know more than Pete? Seriously? This is his job, and he does it well.....I bet that he has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about technique....let's be realistis here. Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as a country....THANK YOU! |
#15
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Skate technique USST two cents
Roger - thanks for posting this. It says exactly what I wanted to say, but
couldn't figure out how to say it. I've also somewhat reluctantly decided to stop reading Ken's posts, and most of the followups, because of what I perceive as the generally analytical and head-based approach that he takes, which I find largely boring, and which seems to take the beauty and fun and flow out of the sport for me. (I also have strong opinions about people who attack for the sake of attack, from which I will spare this forum.) I can ski and think, but when I'm out there and I stop thinking and analyzing, then I start skiing. Pete has the qualifications and experience. We will all be much poorer if he decides that it's not worth the flak to post to the group. It happened before with Nathan; but fortunately he relented and resumed posting. I would much rather read what Pete has to say about how to improve my skiing than what Ken has to say - nothing personal, but Pete has the credibility edge. I sincerely hope that he doesn't stop posting. I'm certainly not suggesting that Ken stop posting, but I want to have the choice of who to read, and who not to. I don't want Pete driven off the list. Tim 15/1/04 12:54, Roger Knight wrote: Hello All- After months away I stopped back to check out the news group and found this discussion.....WOW! You know, I think that we should all be psyched with Pete posting this stuff on here and not attack him(Yes Ken, that means you). Let me say this: Pete knows more about technique than any of us. PERIOD. He may not make some video or site famous skiers who might illustrate his point, but he is up to date on what is going on. Although we may not have turned out a Thomas Alsgaard yet(and for those of you who actually believe that Thomas Alsgaard didn't have a high turnover, you are WRONG! Thomas just looked smoother because of his size and slightly modified style) we have shown tremendous progress under the new USST regime. Pete is throwing himself out there for all of us to take shots at....but does that really help? Frankly, who are we anyway to go up against him? Pete was one of the best racers in this country for years....he has seen more World Cups and great skiers in person(not on some video) than any of us will ever see. Pete knows what is going on....he might not sit around and debate the physiology of whether muscles are actually be used, but is this REALLY important? Really? I mean come on, do you really actually believe that you know more than Pete? Seriously? This is his job, and he does it well.....I bet that he has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about technique....let's be realistis here. Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as a country....THANK YOU! |
#16
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Skate technique USST two cents
Pete, thanks for the great post. And, congrats on the excellent
results by the USST the past few years. I've been actively thinking about not "skiing big" in my classic skiing the last couple years and it is good to have that notion reinforced by you. This newsgroup, and life in general, is richer due to the diversity of people/posters. I too give anything written by Ken Roberts nothing more than a quick skin. I think he'd get more out of a 30-second instruction session with Vordenberg than he will ever get from his endless ramblings about the first-principle physics/physiology of ski technique. But, to each his own. Cheers, Brian .... who is very proud of this result (2002 Birkie): 23 Vordenberg, Pete 2:13:36 24 May, Brian 2:14:18 In article , Roger Knight wrote: Pete and others, thanks for the positive flow on this board and in real life. Don't get bogged down by those who will criticize no matter what you say....you know better than to listen to this stuff. Keep the ideas and positive results flowing, otherwise we will never improve as a country....THANK YOU! |
#17
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Skate technique USST two cents
"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
Yes, you could do the Body Position Drill by falling down onto the other ski. Is the goal here to ski with technique that looks good, or to ski fast regardless of how it looks? Jay Wenner |
#18
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Skate technique USST two cents
FWIW, I think that Ken knows his posts are a little nutty but I don't think
he means harm. He wants discussion and provocation, but he's not nasty or anything, just a little teasey. Obviously, who cares if Marty Hall gets peeved, it's going fast that counts. His analytical bent is harmless, too...could be helpful to some. If you ever want to see actually moronic, drive-away, vicious attack types of posts, see rec.bikes.racing. It does seem out of place to provoke, tease or be demanding of a busy coach. Any other inter/national coaches posting here? Ever? Sheesh! Let's be grateful...and I'm sure we are. I'm happy, like so many others here, that Pete decided to share what they've been doing at the USST. He wasn't signing up for a debate. I'm sure he knows that. And I likewise hope he keeps on reporting on what they're up to over there! PODIUM! PODIUM! -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller about smalltown smuggling ... radical novels coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! 800-763-6923 |
#19
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Skate technique USST two cents
"Sly D. Skeez" wrote
Is the goal here to ski with technique that looks good, or to ski fast regardless of how it looks? Jay Wenner First, not directed at all to Jay's comment, at all... I'd just like to chime in to thank Pete for the wonderful post and to repeat what others have said about not being taken aback by what anyone has posted in "debating" some of the principles he conveyed. I'm of the camp that techniques, drills and philosophies by on the snow experts are worth more (to me) than theoretical musings, no matter how smart or theoretically knowledgeable the person is. I'd sooner read one post a year from the likes of Pete than daily posts by an intelligent person who is just theorizing, but not skiing or coaching at an expert level. It's just not of interest to me when it doesn't come from an on the snow expert. Being from a medical background, there's biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, biophysics, etc, and then there's the human body which defies the rules in every *individual* case. Science, applied to the human body is in generally in terms of ranges - not rules. That's why a medical professional gets better after he/she learns all the exceptions and adaptations and why an experienced coach who approaches his profession intelligently and knowledgably, with an understanding of theory, is the expert, not the scientist. However much theoretical musings will challenge and forward the sport in the right context; they're just not interesting to me. Also, learn to pick your battles, don't do it in the face of a real expert who only posts to be friendly and helpful. He's not looking for a debate and will be driven off whether you intend this or not. I've seen it in so many newsgroups. Second, as to what Jay just said: for a racer, I think the only criterion is speed, but for some of us the goal can only be to look good. We all know "really ugly" skiers who are strong, fit and fast and we just wish we could keep up. When I see Ken's videos I think I probably "look" a lot better but then hear how $%&ing fast he is (compared to me!). I just think, I wish I could ski as fast as him regardless of how I look. But, it is also my opinion, is that world class skiers don't go fast without looking pretty damn good at least to my semi-educated eye. Maybe not PERFECT from the theoretician's or even coach's point of view, but man they're within a gnat's ass of awfully good technique by any standard. There are no truly ugly world class skiers, in my opinion. But some of us can't go fast and take a lot of pleasure in at least looking (and feeling) good on skis - good technique is fun! Case in point: I'm a pretty old guy (50) who didn't really start skiing for fitness until 3-4 years ago. I'm not a fat couch potato, but I am not really a naturally strong or fast guy, never have been, and didn't ever do any serious training during my youth or middle age. Before that I skied, hiked, biked some, but it was strictly hit and miss, very casual. I bought my first non three-pin gear (used, second or third tier) striding and skating skis about 6-7 years ago, and my first top shelf stuff this winter. I entered my first race of any sort 3 years ago. I did my first 50 k the same year. I do ski as much as I can now (say 5 hours per week average for 5 months in the winter, which is a lot for me and really as much as I can possibly squeeze in) and actually try to follow a informal "program" to properly mix proper LSD and one day a week of proper intensity. I still creep up "personal bests" in terms of minutes/km every year and do a 50 k marathon every year, but I'm SLOW (in the neighborhood of +50% compared to the winners!). What I've noticed is that my friends who at one time were serious endurance athletes, given the same state of condition and minutes/km times in the early winter, improve their times MUCH more quickly given the less time and effort as me (I pay attention to it and don't think I "overtrain"). I don't know if this is residual base or genetics (probably both). They also have better technique than me (especially striding) and so I thank my lucky stars I can ski with them for a while in the early season - it's really great to ski with and behind a better skier. Most of the people my speed are very crummy skiers. Realistically, with 5 hours per week, at age 50, with the lack of historical base and genetics, can I continue to increase my fitness, yes. Can I continually improve technique, yes. Can I enjoy skiing and take pride in my technique - absolutely yes. Can I be fast (in terms of competing in age group) regardless of pretty or ugly technique? - no. So it's technique or nothing as far as being top level at something. But I really will have modest improvements over time. For example, my goal is to get another 10+% knocked off my 50K time, over the next couple of years (I'm at 3:45 and would like to be between 3:15 and 3:30). I don't expect be competitive with the national-masters level skiers who are in my age group locally. But EVERY TIME I ski, I ENJOY working on good technique - not from any theoretical basis, but just trying to emulate what I _see_ from video clips, and integrate what I read, and occasional lesson or pointers from people who have real life experience as teachers or coaches. The theoretical stuff I read here (or used to), doesn't do one bit of good. So I guess my point is: for some of us, we really do like looking good in our skiing (I mean feeling efficient and really feeling the flow, not dressing snappy -although that's part of it as well) since we don't have a reasonable expectation to be fast anyway. Grissy. |
#20
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Skate technique USST two cents
Jeff Potter wrote in message
Any other inter/national coaches posting here? Ever? Sheesh! I just got the Jenex ski technique video with Zach Caldwell and it seems excellent. Let's be grateful...and I'm sure we are. I am. Thanks to Vordenberg for his note. JT |
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