What's the real difference between types of boots?

What's the real difference between skate boots and classic boots, and would
a person's performance be hindered severely by using one type of boot for
the other discipline.

Are combi-boots worthwhile, or do they just compromise too much?

The reason why I ask is this. I'm just learning how to XC ski, and have
been taking classic lessons at Solitude Nordic Center. Ultimately, I'd like
to learn to do both, but I feel it's important to get a good basis in
classic style before attempting other stuff.

Forget racing. I'm doing this to try to maintain a modicum of fitness
through the winter, so when I get back on my bike in the spring, I'm not a
total fat slob, like I have been the past few years.

The problem is that I don't want to keep using the rental boots, because I
can't guarantee I'll get the same pair each time. I don't want to worry
about the fit of my boots, and painful feet. I know from working 8-years in
a bike shop how important good footwear is.

Another problem is that I pronate pretty severely, and have sloppy ankles,
which makes it difficult for me to get my inside edges into the snow when
trying to wedge-stop or turn, and with the freeheel thing going on, I can't
do a hockey stop yet.

I'd like to get a boot that has good ankle support to assist with this. It
would seem that a skate boot is the way to go ...

I know from cycling that one can use a mountain bike shoe on the road with
little to no negative effect on performance, but one would NOT want to use a
road bike shoe off-road.

Is it the same with XC ski boots?




--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash

Getting off the standard rental boots is a good idea. If skating is
not an issue for now, a combi boot with the plastic ankle support might
work very well. I'm currently using the Salomon Active combi (same as
pro/9 combi, different color) for classic w/o the ankle supports, which
fit me better than their Racing Classic 9. The flex is the same or
very similar, but with less plastic in the heel area. A skating boot is
built to have less forefoot flex, which is not what you want in classic
technique. Your ankles must really be loose, because for some reason I
pronate on skis, landing on the inside, even in classical. Make sure
whatever boot you choose fits well and feels comfortable. Beyond
that, you're on a learning curve and it's important to give it some
time and not prejudge equipment from how you are doing things now.

Gene

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote:



What's the real difference between skate boots and classic boots, and
would a person's performance be hindered severely by using one type
of boot for the other discipline.

Are combi-boots worthwhile, or do they just compromise too much?

The reason why I ask is this. I'm just learning how to XC ski, and
have been taking classic lessons at Solitude Nordic Center.
Ultimately, I'd like to learn to do both, but I feel it's important
to get a good basis in classic style before attempting other stuff.

Forget racing. I'm doing this to try to maintain a modicum of fitness
through the winter, so when I get back on my bike in the spring, I'm
not a total fat slob, like I have been the past few years.

The problem is that I don't want to keep using the rental boots,
because I can't guarantee I'll get the same pair each time. I don't
want to worry about the fit of my boots, and painful feet. I know
from working 8-years in a bike shop how important good footwear is.

Another problem is that I pronate pretty severely, and have sloppy
ankles, which makes it difficult for me to get my inside edges into
the snow when trying to wedge-stop or turn, and with the freeheel
thing going on, I can't do a hockey stop yet.

I'd like to get a boot that has good ankle support to assist with
this. It would seem that a skate boot is the way to go ...

I know from cycling that one can use a mountain bike shoe on the road
with little to no negative effect on performance, but one would NOT
want to use a road bike shoe off-road.

Is it the same with XC ski boots?




--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash

It's weird. Normally, I'm walking on my instep, but when I point my feet
inwards and bend my knees in that classic snowplow, my feet roll out.

I've got no problems doing a herringbone up a hill, but downhill is another
story.

With me on the track, the classic skiers don't need to worry about the
little clumps of snow kicked up by the skaters, they need to worry about the
big diggers made in the tracks by my knees and elbows.




On 01/11/2006 06:42 AM, in article
, "Gene Goldenfeld"
wrote:

Getting off the standard rental boots is a good idea. If skating is
not an issue for now, a combi boot with the plastic ankle support might
work very well. I'm currently using the Salomon Active combi (same as
pro/9 combi, different color) for classic w/o the ankle supports, which
fit me better than their Racing Classic 9. The flex is the same or
very similar, but with less plastic in the heel area. A skating boot is
built to have less forefoot flex, which is not what you want in classic
technique. Your ankles must really be loose, because for some reason I
pronate on skis, landing on the inside, even in classical. Make sure
whatever boot you choose fits well and feels comfortable. Beyond
that, you're on a learning curve and it's important to give it some
time and not prejudge equipment from how you are doing things now.

Gene

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote:



What's the real difference between skate boots and classic boots, and
would a person's performance be hindered severely by using one type
of boot for the other discipline.

Are combi-boots worthwhile, or do they just compromise too much?

The reason why I ask is this. I'm just learning how to XC ski, and
have been taking classic lessons at Solitude Nordic Center.
Ultimately, I'd like to learn to do both, but I feel it's important
to get a good basis in classic style before attempting other stuff.

Forget racing. I'm doing this to try to maintain a modicum of fitness
through the winter, so when I get back on my bike in the spring, I'm
not a total fat slob, like I have been the past few years.

The problem is that I don't want to keep using the rental boots,
because I can't guarantee I'll get the same pair each time. I don't
want to worry about the fit of my boots, and painful feet. I know
from working 8-years in a bike shop how important good footwear is.

Another problem is that I pronate pretty severely, and have sloppy
ankles, which makes it difficult for me to get my inside edges into
the snow when trying to wedge-stop or turn, and with the freeheel
thing going on, I can't do a hockey stop yet.

I'd like to get a boot that has good ankle support to assist with
this. It would seem that a skate boot is the way to go ...

I know from cycling that one can use a mountain bike shoe on the road
with little to no negative effect on performance, but one would NOT
want to use a road bike shoe off-road.

Is it the same with XC ski boots?



--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

Assuming your technique is correct, you might want to talk to an
athletic trainer, someone who tests before planning, to see if this is
the result of muscle imbalances or weakness, something orthotics can
speak to, or something else. For example, my hips are rotated to the
right, creating all sorts of havoc in skiing, but we're not sure yet if
it's muscles or genes.

GG

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote:

It's weird. Normally, I'm walking on my instep, but when I point my
feet inwards and bend my knees in that classic snowplow, my feet roll
out.

I've got no problems doing a herringbone up a hill, but downhill is
another story.

With me on the track, the classic skiers don't need to worry about the
little clumps of snow kicked up by the skaters, they need to worry
about the big diggers made in the tracks by my knees and elbows.




On 01/11/2006 06:42 AM, in article
, "Gene Goldenfeld"
wrote:

Getting off the standard rental boots is a good idea. If skating is
not an issue for now, a combi boot with the plastic ankle support
might work very well. I'm currently using the Salomon Active combi
(same as pro/9 combi, different color) for classic w/o the ankle
supports, which fit me better than their Racing Classic 9. The
flex is the same or very similar, but with less plastic in the heel
area. A skating boot is built to have less forefoot flex, which is
not what you want in classic technique. Your ankles must really be
loose, because for some reason I pronate on skis, landing on the
inside, even in classical. Make sure whatever boot you choose fits
well and feels comfortable. Beyond that, you're on a learning
curve and it's important to give it some time and not prejudge
equipment from how you are doing things now.

Gene

"Steven L. Sheffield" wrote:



What's the real difference between skate boots and classic boots,
and would a person's performance be hindered severely by using one
type of boot for the other discipline.

Are combi-boots worthwhile, or do they just compromise too much?

The reason why I ask is this. I'm just learning how to XC ski, and
have been taking classic lessons at Solitude Nordic Center.
Ultimately, I'd like to learn to do both, but I feel it's important
to get a good basis in classic style before attempting other stuff.

Forget racing. I'm doing this to try to maintain a modicum of
fitness through the winter, so when I get back on my bike in the
spring, I'm not a total fat slob, like I have been the past few
years.

The problem is that I don't want to keep using the rental boots,
because I can't guarantee I'll get the same pair each time. I
don't want to worry about the fit of my boots, and painful feet.
I know from working 8-years in a bike shop how important good
footwear is.

Another problem is that I pronate pretty severely, and have sloppy
ankles, which makes it difficult for me to get my inside edges into
the snow when trying to wedge-stop or turn, and with the freeheel
thing going on, I can't do a hockey stop yet.

I'd like to get a boot that has good ankle support to assist with
this. It would seem that a skate boot is the way to go ...

I know from cycling that one can use a mountain bike shoe on the
road with little to no negative effect on performance, but one
would NOT want to use a road bike shoe off-road.

Is it the same with XC ski boots?



--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

Stevan: as he said, a combi boot often works just fine for classic.
From what I've seen, it is sometimes very close to equivalent to a
classic (aka striding) boot, but with a plastic cuff. And, often that
cuff is removable, making it very similar, if not identical to a
classic boot in feel and function.

The way they make them is usually to take a striding boot with it's
flexible sole (a skating boot generally has a very rigid sole), and add
a plastic cuff to give the lateral support needed for skating.

As one example, my daughter had an Alpina combi boot for years, and
when you took the cuff off, with the exception of some cosmetic
differences, the structure and flex of the boot was identical to their
classic boot. Her plan was to use it for classic after she bought her
dedicated skating boot, but her foot had grown so we went ahead and
bought her a new dedicated striding boot as well. But the new striding
boot is really virtually identical to the combi boot with the cuff
removed.

Some very good skiers I know stride in combi boots w/cuff because they
feel they like the lateral support the cuff gives down hill. I
personally don't agree with this, but it's an idea.

Combi boots used to be in the middle of a company's line (e.g. not top
of the line), but nowadays you can spend the $$ to get top of the line
combi boots because of the popularity of the skiathlon format for
races. I don't believe they have a removable cuff though.

I like your attitude of learning classic skiing. I personally believe
it's the most fun form of XC skiing, the most versitile, and I agree
with you that it is the best to learn it well as a foundation. But
I'll bet that you'll also take up skating and might even do that more.
That's the trend these days, because it's a lot of fun and often less
"fussy" in terms of preparation and technique.

If money isn't a HUGE deal for you, I might suggest you buy a dedicated
classic boot for now - one in your price range that really fits you
well. Then, if/when you take up skate skiing, buy a dedicated skating
boot as well. I do believe that while a combi boot is close to 100%
acceptable for classic skiing, it less acceptable (much more of a
compromise) for skating.

Everyone I've known who has skated on a combi boot and then used a
dedicated skating boot is much happier with the skating boot. This is
not nearly as true for striding in combi boots - people are often very
happy with them indefinitely. The "compromise" toward the flexible
sole is why.

I'm a firm believer that if you really enjoy both classic and skate
skiing, you should just buy a pair of boots for each, if you can afford
it. If you're into bicycles, you'll find the investment trivial 8-).
You'll have more fun with one of each.

When it comes to skis - I have a very strong opinion that combi skis
just aren't worth considering. They are a huge compromise for both
techniques and make both techniques more difficult and less fun.
Therefore, don't even think of combi skis - just buy a properly fitted
striding ski (from a competent shop) that is in your price range.

Have fun,

Cam

Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
What's the real difference between skate boots and classic boots, and would
a person's performance be hindered severely by using one type of boot for
the other discipline.

Are combi-boots worthwhile, or do they just compromise too much?

The reason why I ask is this. I'm just learning how to XC ski, and have
been taking classic lessons at Solitude Nordic Center. Ultimately, I'd like
to learn to do both, but I feel it's important to get a good basis in
classic style before attempting other stuff.

Forget racing. I'm doing this to try to maintain a modicum of fitness
through the winter, so when I get back on my bike in the spring, I'm not a
total fat slob, like I have been the past few years.

The problem is that I don't want to keep using the rental boots, because I
can't guarantee I'll get the same pair each time. I don't want to worry
about the fit of my boots, and painful feet. I know from working 8-years in
a bike shop how important good footwear is.

Another problem is that I pronate pretty severely, and have sloppy ankles,
which makes it difficult for me to get my inside edges into the snow when
trying to wedge-stop or turn, and with the freeheel thing going on, I can't
do a hockey stop yet.

I'd like to get a boot that has good ankle support to assist with this. It
would seem that a skate boot is the way to go ...

I know from cycling that one can use a mountain bike shoe on the road with
little to no negative effect on performance, but one would NOT want to use a
road bike shoe off-road.

Is it the same with XC ski boots?



One can draw the analogy between bike shoes. I think of skate boots
like MTB shoes, and classic like road shoes. It is much easier as you
say to use MTB shoes on the road than vice-versa, just as in my opinion
it is easier to use skate boots for classic than it is to use classic
boots for skating.

If you are just getting started, count on getting some new equipement
in a year or two when you figure out what it is you like, what level
you are, etc.

I have no direct experience with combi-boots (I use skate boots for
both skate and classic), but I think it sort of like a hybrid-bike: You
can't keep up with the mounatinbikes offroad, and you can't keep up
with the road bikes on the road.

I too started skiing as a way to not be too fat when I get back on the
bike in the sprisng, but recently have become mor einterested in skiing
for skiing's sake, as well as being interested in speed. (I am doing
the Norwegian Birkebeiner for the first time this year) So now I am
much more interested in my equipment, and will probably make changes to
my boots.

But if all you want to do is stay in shape, and aren't worried about
having the perfect equipment, go ahead and get skate boots if you don't
want to buy both.

Have fun!

Joseph

Perhaps an opinion about combi books is best formed after having used
them, and recalling that the OP didn't express the need to keep up with
anyone. The bike shoes analogy suffers because MTB shoes, at least
below the high end, can be used as combis, while road bike ones are
typically too rigid, roughly like skate boots. If the OP does come to
like cross country skiing enough to buy rollerskis, combis (with the
cuff) will give a good start with classical and not too bad with skate,
depending on the ski model.

Gene


wrote:

I have no direct experience with combi-boots (I use skate boots for
both skate and classic), but I think it sort of like a hybrid-bike:
You can't keep up with the mounatinbikes offroad, and you can't keep
up with the road bikes on the road.

I too started skiing as a way to not be too fat when I get back on the
bike in the sprisng, but recently have become mor einterested in
skiing for skiing's sake, as well as being interested in speed. (I am
doing the Norwegian Birkebeiner for the first time this year) So now
I am much more interested in my equipment, and will probably make
changes to my boots.

But if all you want to do is stay in shape, and aren't worried about
having the perfect equipment, go ahead and get skate boots if you
don't want to buy both.

Have fun!

Joseph

I tried striding with my skating boots - even with the cuffs loosened,
it was awful. No sole flex.

I have newer Solomon Pro Combi boots, the yellow and red Salomon
Classic boots from 5 or 7 years ago, and the old Salomon yellow and
(now faded) purple skate (very pre-pilot) boots for my track skis.

I believe that the Pro Combi has a classic sole that will flex similar
to their Pro Classic boot, but has the higher cuff with the velcro
strap. The theory is that the boot flexes for striding but has the
ankle support for skating.

I find that my new(er) Pro Combi has support equal to if not better
than my old yellow and purple skate boots. The flex for classic allows
for an active ankle angle when striding, but loosening the velcro strap
to reduce leg pressure improves comfort for striding.

The advantage of using the Combi for striding is better support on fast
downhill runs. I bought the combis after a friend told me about using
his old skating boots for classic because of the better support. A
second advantage is for those of us who stride a couple of hours then
switch to skating is the convenience of not having to hop up and down
in a slushy parking lot while changing boots.

To put my observations in proper light, I am more of a last wave
recreational skier than a front to middle wave racer. A combi is OK
for me under these circumstances.

Edgar

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Perhaps an opinion about combi books is best formed after having used
them, and recalling that the OP didn't express the need to keep up with
anyone. The bike shoes analogy suffers because MTB shoes, at least
below the high end, can be used as combis, while road bike ones are
typically too rigid, roughly like skate boots. If the OP does come to
like cross country skiing enough to buy rollerskis, combis (with the
cuff) will give a good start with classical and not too bad with skate,
depending on the ski model.

Gene

Certainly experience would help! I wish I could have tried some. I
thought about buying some combi boots, but in the end decided against
it.

When I think of the bike shoe analogy, I don't think stiffness is
really the issue. I was mostly thinking about how one often needs to
walk/climb on difficult surfaces while MTB'ing and this is certainly
not very easy in road shoes. So road shoes fail in a big way on an
important aspect of MTB riding, while the problem with MTB shoes on the
road is they are often a bit too soft. Similarly classic boots (and
perhaps to some degree combi boots) don't give enough ankle support to
skate which is a major problem if you want to skate. But skate boots
are "only" a little too stiff for classic.

I think of myself as being in a similar position to the OP in a few
years. I started with skate boots so I could try skating as it was
meant to be, and my classic was until this year limited to just
shuffleing around keeping in shape.

Now that I am interested in my performance relative to other people, I
am getting classic boots and good skis (I have a fitting appointment on
Friday.) I am not sorry I bought the skate boots, but now feel I need
to specialize a bit. I suppose I could have started with classic boots,
but then I wouldn't have been able give skating a fair try.

I just think that if people just starting out get combi boots because
they are not sure what they want, in a year or so they will end up
buying two pairs of new boots to specialize, instead of just one.

But of course I may be wrong, and there are surely thousands of happy
combi-boot users to prove it.

Joseph


wrote:

I have no direct experience with combi-boots (I use skate boots for
both skate and classic), but I think it sort of like a hybrid-bike:
You can't keep up with the mounatinbikes offroad, and you can't keep
up with the road bikes on the road.

I too started skiing as a way to not be too fat when I get back on the
bike in the sprisng, but recently have become mor einterested in
skiing for skiing's sake, as well as being interested in speed. (I am
doing the Norwegian Birkebeiner for the first time this year) So now
I am much more interested in my equipment, and will probably make
changes to my boots.

But if all you want to do is stay in shape, and aren't worried about
having the perfect equipment, go ahead and get skate boots if you
don't want to buy both.

Have fun!

Joseph