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Combi Skis



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 12th 10, 01:04 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jim Whalen NULL
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Posts: 14
Default Combi Skis

What is the deal with combi skis and boots? Is it as simple as you
can skate ski AND/OR classic ski with the same equipment? I assume of
course that different poles would be needed, but skis and boots work
fine in either technique? How much if anything is sacrificed by
having 'combi' equipment vs 'pure' skate/classic equipment? Any
experience with this would be helpful. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old December 12th 10, 05:06 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
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Posts: 572
Default Combi Skis

On snow, a combi ski is a compromise probably most often taken by young
juniors as a starter or by someone who can't afford both (or by someone
who has been misled by a shop salesperson). The inherent problem with
combi skis is that the flex for classic and skate are pretty much the
opposite. A well-chosen classic ski flexes (goes down for the push
off) at 50-55% of body weight, while a skate ski is most commonly in
the 110-120% range. A classic-only ski is also typically 10-20 cm
longer than a skate because a classic ski needs a kick zone. I've never
used a combi ski, but imagine that for softer snow conditions, where a
softer flex ski would work with either technique, one can get away with
it ok.

Combi boots are closer, tho still different. In classic technique, the
forefoot needs to be flexible because the foot rolls forward in the
push off. With skating, the forefoot doesn't much matter because the
push off is with the inside of the foot, meaning lateral firmness
is key. That's where one can get away with the compromise. While the
lateral support of a combi boot is not quite that of a skate-only one,
probably the biggest deficiency is that even with a plastic ankle wrap,
a combi boot doesn't offer the level of ankle support that most people
need for skating (and get with a skate-only boot). Another thing of
somewhat less importance is that classic boot length should fit like a
tennis or hiking shoe, with room in front to allow the foot's forward
motion, while a skate boot can be shorter because the motion is side to
side.

Two situations where a combi boot can work especially well are 1) for
those wanting or needing more ankle support and stability than a
classical boot typically offers; 2) for classical rollersking, where
being higher off the ground makes extra support invaluable. For a
beginner, a combi boot can be a starting place, though I imagine one
would normally be better off with a second or third level of the line
skating boot. Rossi makes a touring boot (X5?) that a shop owner said
offers enough support to easy skating.

There is a catch-22, tho, as you didn't mention your experience or
technique level. It's one of those, "if you have to ask" answers.
Typically, it's better for a beginner to start out classical skiing,
getting the feel of moving and balancing on one and two feet going
forward, before taking on the all-glide, side-to-side motion of
skating. But there are exceptions, notably those who have done a lot
of ice skating, rollerblading or downhill skiing, i.e., who are already
used to balancing and gliding on one foot and moving faster.

Gene
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 06:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Jim Whalen NULL wrote:

What is the deal with combi skis and boots? Is it as simple as you
can skate ski AND/OR classic ski with the same equipment? I assume of
course that different poles would be needed, but skis and boots work
fine in either technique? How much if anything is sacrificed by
having 'combi' equipment vs 'pure' skate/classic equipment? Any
experience with this would be helpful. Thanks.

  #3  
Old December 18th 10, 09:11 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Camilo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Combi Skis

On Dec 12, 9:06*am, wrote:
On snow, a combi ski is a compromise probably most often taken by young
juniors as a starter or by someone who can't afford both (or by someone
who has been misled by a shop salesperson). The inherent problem with
combi skis is that the flex for classic and skate are pretty much the
opposite. *A well-chosen classic ski flexes (goes down for the push
off) at 50-55% of body weight, while a skate ski is most commonly in
the 110-120% range. A classic-only ski is also typically 10-20 cm
longer than a skate because a classic ski needs a kick zone. I've never
used a combi ski, but imagine that for softer snow conditions, where a
softer flex ski would work with either technique, one can get away with
it ok.

Combi boots are closer, tho still different. *In classic technique, the
forefoot needs to be flexible because the foot rolls forward in the
push off. *With skating, the forefoot doesn't much matter because the
push off is with the inside of the foot, meaning lateral firmness
is key. That's where one can get away with the compromise. While the
lateral support of a combi boot is not quite that of a skate-only one,
probably the biggest deficiency is that even with a plastic ankle wrap,
a combi boot doesn't offer the level of ankle support that most people
need for skating (and get with a skate-only boot). Another thing of
somewhat less importance is that classic boot length should fit like a
tennis or hiking shoe, with room in front to allow the foot's forward
motion, while a skate boot can be shorter because the motion is side to
side. *

Two situations where a combi boot can work especially well are 1) for
those wanting or needing more ankle support and stability than a
classical boot typically offers; 2) for classical rollersking, where
being higher off the ground makes extra support invaluable. For a
beginner, a combi boot can be a starting place, though I imagine one
would normally be better off with a second or third level of the line
skating boot. Rossi makes a touring boot (X5?) that a shop owner said
offers enough support to easy skating.

There is a catch-22, tho, as you didn't mention your experience or
technique level. It's one of those, "if you have to ask" answers.
Typically, it's better for a beginner to start out classical skiing,
getting the feel of moving and balancing on one and two feet going
forward, before taking on the all-glide, side-to-side motion of
skating. *But there are exceptions, notably those who have done a lot
of ice skating, rollerblading or downhill skiing, i.e., who are already
used to balancing and gliding on one foot and moving faster.

Gene
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 06:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Jim Whalen NULL wrote:



What is the deal with combi skis and boots? *Is it as simple as you
can skate ski AND/OR classic ski with the same equipment? *I assume of
course that different poles would be needed, but skis and boots work
fine in either technique? *How much if anything is sacrificed by
having 'combi' equipment vs 'pure' skate/classic equipment? *Any
experience with this would be helpful. Thanks.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Agree with everything and add one more MAJOR disadvantage of combi
skis: waxing. Striding requires grip wax which then has to be
completely, totally, utterly removed and replaced with some glide wax
when switching to skating. Then, when you want to re-wax for
striding, unless you strip off the glde wax from that area before you
re-wax for grip, that grip wax won't have a good base to adhere to and
will wear off very quickly.

So, actually, to me, the most seriuous problem is waxing. I think you
can "make do" with the skis themselves and the boots, but the waxing
is a huge hassle.
  #4  
Old December 24th 10, 06:13 PM
Jan Gerrit Klok Jan Gerrit Klok is offline
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Default

I've been interested in Combi skis for groomed touring. A skater primarily, I sometimes will stumble upon classic-only trails which I cannot double pole all the way up (need to work on that).

Something new is on the market, and I will demo it end of January.

http://www.scandinavianoutdoorstore....t/intelligrip/

Some sort of removable grip skin, offering heaps of grip. I've been told in a few words that it works to satisfaction.
I've been thinking of inventing such a product myself, and am delighted I now don't have to anymore. Although I am already thinking of enhancement, from what I see in the pictures. If the add-on offers A LOT of grip, the stiffer flex of the skating ski may be less of an issue? A longer, thinker grip layer will be engaged similarly to a regular one on a regular classic ski? Glide will be much slower, obviously, but we're talking about being able to stick to the tracks, and not get cold hiking deep snow in skating boots.

I'll be sure to review on here and xcskiforum.com when I've had the chance to demo them.
  #5  
Old December 25th 10, 04:27 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Edgar[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Combi Skis

On Dec 12, 10:06*am, wrote:
On snow, a combi ski is a compromise probably most often taken by young
juniors as a starter or by someone who can't afford both (or by someone
who has been misled by a shop salesperson). The inherent problem with
combi skis is that the flex for classic and skate are pretty much the
opposite. *A well-chosen classic ski flexes (goes down for the push
off) at 50-55% of body weight, while a skate ski is most commonly in
the 110-120% range. A classic-only ski is also typically 10-20 cm
longer than a skate because a classic ski needs a kick zone. I've never
used a combi ski, but imagine that for softer snow conditions, where a
softer flex ski would work with either technique, one can get away with
it ok.

Combi boots are closer, tho still different. *In classic technique, the
forefoot needs to be flexible because the foot rolls forward in the
push off. *With skating, the forefoot doesn't much matter because the
push off is with the inside of the foot, meaning lateral firmness
is key. That's where one can get away with the compromise. While the
lateral support of a combi boot is not quite that of a skate-only one,
probably the biggest deficiency is that even with a plastic ankle wrap,
a combi boot doesn't offer the level of ankle support that most people
need for skating (and get with a skate-only boot). Another thing of
somewhat less importance is that classic boot length should fit like a
tennis or hiking shoe, with room in front to allow the foot's forward
motion, while a skate boot can be shorter because the motion is side to
side. *

Two situations where a combi boot can work especially well are 1) for
those wanting or needing more ankle support and stability than a
classical boot typically offers; 2) for classical rollersking, where
being higher off the ground makes extra support invaluable. For a
beginner, a combi boot can be a starting place, though I imagine one
would normally be better off with a second or third level of the line
skating boot. Rossi makes a touring boot (X5?) that a shop owner said
offers enough support to easy skating.

There is a catch-22, tho, as you didn't mention your experience or
technique level. It's one of those, "if you have to ask" answers.
Typically, it's better for a beginner to start out classical skiing,
getting the feel of moving and balancing on one and two feet going
forward, before taking on the all-glide, side-to-side motion of
skating. *But there are exceptions, notably those who have done a lot
of ice skating, rollerblading or downhill skiing, i.e., who are already
used to balancing and gliding on one foot and moving faster.

Gene
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 06:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Jim Whalen NULL wrote:

What is the deal with combi skis and boots? *Is it as simple as you
can skate ski AND/OR classic ski with the same equipment? *I assume of
course that different poles would be needed, but skis and boots work
fine in either technique? *How much if anything is sacrificed by
having 'combi' equipment vs 'pure' skate/classic equipment? *Any
experience with this would be helpful. Thanks.


The interesting "combi" boots are the pursuit boots that World Cup
skiers use where they switch technique mid race. The pursuit boots
are the manufacturer's "secret" because they would prefer to sell you
a classic boot AND a skate boot.

Edgar
  #6  
Old December 26th 10, 12:09 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 327
Default Combi Skis

On Dec 25, 12:27*pm, Edgar wrote:
On Dec 12, 10:06*am, wrote:



On snow, a combi ski is a compromise probably most often taken by young
juniors as a starter or by someone who can't afford both (or by someone
who has been misled by a shop salesperson). The inherent problem with
combi skis is that the flex for classic and skate are pretty much the
opposite. *A well-chosen classic ski flexes (goes down for the push
off) at 50-55% of body weight, while a skate ski is most commonly in
the 110-120% range. A classic-only ski is also typically 10-20 cm
longer than a skate because a classic ski needs a kick zone. I've never
used a combi ski, but imagine that for softer snow conditions, where a
softer flex ski would work with either technique, one can get away with
it ok.


Combi boots are closer, tho still different. *In classic technique, the
forefoot needs to be flexible because the foot rolls forward in the
push off. *With skating, the forefoot doesn't much matter because the
push off is with the inside of the foot, meaning lateral firmness
is key. That's where one can get away with the compromise. While the
lateral support of a combi boot is not quite that of a skate-only one,
probably the biggest deficiency is that even with a plastic ankle wrap,
a combi boot doesn't offer the level of ankle support that most people
need for skating (and get with a skate-only boot). Another thing of
somewhat less importance is that classic boot length should fit like a
tennis or hiking shoe, with room in front to allow the foot's forward
motion, while a skate boot can be shorter because the motion is side to
side. *


Two situations where a combi boot can work especially well are 1) for
those wanting or needing more ankle support and stability than a
classical boot typically offers; 2) for classical rollersking, where
being higher off the ground makes extra support invaluable. For a
beginner, a combi boot can be a starting place, though I imagine one
would normally be better off with a second or third level of the line
skating boot. Rossi makes a touring boot (X5?) that a shop owner said
offers enough support to easy skating.


There is a catch-22, tho, as you didn't mention your experience or
technique level. It's one of those, "if you have to ask" answers.
Typically, it's better for a beginner to start out classical skiing,
getting the feel of moving and balancing on one and two feet going
forward, before taking on the all-glide, side-to-side motion of
skating. *But there are exceptions, notably those who have done a lot
of ice skating, rollerblading or downhill skiing, i.e., who are already
used to balancing and gliding on one foot and moving faster.


Gene
On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 06:04:54 -0800 (PST)
Jim Whalen NULL wrote:


What is the deal with combi skis and boots? *Is it as simple as you
can skate ski AND/OR classic ski with the same equipment? *I assume of
course that different poles would be needed, but skis and boots work
fine in either technique? *How much if anything is sacrificed by
having 'combi' equipment vs 'pure' skate/classic equipment? *Any
experience with this would be helpful. Thanks.


The interesting "combi" boots are the pursuit boots that World Cup
skiers use where they switch technique mid race. *The pursuit boots
are the manufacturer's "secret" because they would prefer to sell you
a classic boot AND a skate boot.

Edgar


short touring skis with fishscales work just fine for skating, just
don't use kick wax on them.
 




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