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Mounting Randonnee Bindings



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 1st 03, 11:09 PM
Craig
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Default Mounting Randonnee Bindings

Hi,

I am going to be mounting a pair of Fritschi Freeride's to Dynastar
Intuitiv's (Inspired by J. Nobis) and had a few basic questions before
I begin.

The Fritschi's came with instructions and a mounting template, the
Dynastars have a 10mm long black mark on the top labelled ø 4.1 (the
first symbol, an "o" with a slash through it, is the greek letter
phi).

The Fritschi instruction's provide 2 ways of aligning the template to
the ski, depending if the ski is marked for the centre of the boot or
not.

Marked for Centre of Boot

Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale
from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm
in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose
the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so
the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm.

Not Marked for Centre of Boot

You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark
of the template at this location.

I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method
(centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than
the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite
a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory
mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot?

My last question is then the label ø 4.1 at the black mark. I am
assuming that it refers to the diameter in mm that the holes should be
drilled for the screws that mount the bindings. This also indicates
(according to the Frtischi instruction's) that the ski has an
integrated steel plate, and once the hole is drilled it should be
tapped. This is a bit confusing to me, as the screw thread is not a
standard machine thread and I am not aware of taps for these types of
threads. Alternatively I show a #12 - 24 threads per inch about the
closest to the screw's major diameter. I tested this in a scrap piece
of metal, where I drilled a 4.1mm hole then ran the tap through it.
The screw seemed to be able to enter just fine. Hopefully this is the
correct method to use.

Many thanks for your time and help.


Craig
Ads
  #2  
Old November 3rd 03, 06:49 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Craig wrote:
Hi,

I am going to be mounting a pair of Fritschi Freeride's to Dynastar
Intuitiv's (Inspired by J. Nobis) and had a few basic questions before
I begin.

The Fritschi's came with instructions and a mounting template, the
Dynastars have a 10mm long black mark on the top labelled ø 4.1 (the
first symbol, an "o" with a slash through it, is the greek letter
phi).


_ This is the drill bit size to use. 4.1mm is standard for skis
with metal in the topsheet. You can probably get away with 3.9mm
if you have one of those already. ( 9/64 if I remember correctly.. )



The Fritschi instruction's provide 2 ways of aligning the template to
the ski, depending if the ski is marked for the centre of the boot or
not.

Marked for Centre of Boot

Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale
from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm
in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose
the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so
the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm.

Not Marked for Centre of Boot

You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark
of the template at this location.

I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method
(centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than
the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite
a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory
mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot?


_ I don't know but that big a difference doesn't sound right with
relatively short boots. The second instructions sound like a bad
translation, the standard is 1/2 the chord length[1], not the ski
length. Try that and see if it's not closer. Pretty much alpine
ski comes with a boot center mark these days and I would use that
if at all possible.



My last question is then the label ø 4.1 at the black mark. I am
assuming that it refers to the diameter in mm that the holes should be
drilled for the screws that mount the bindings. This also indicates
(according to the Frtischi instruction's) that the ski has an
integrated steel plate, and once the hole is drilled it should be
tapped. This is a bit confusing to me, as the screw thread is not a
standard machine thread and I am not aware of taps for these types of
threads. Alternatively I show a #12 - 24 threads per inch about the
closest to the screw's major diameter. I tested this in a scrap piece
of metal, where I drilled a 4.1mm hole then ran the tap through it.
The screw seemed to be able to enter just fine. Hopefully this is the
correct method to use.


- - That's exactly what most the ski shop guy's do. You can also
just not bother, but that might mess up the screws if you want
to move the binding's later. Personally, I've just drilled and
used epoxy and not bothered with the threading, but that was on
skis that I didn't care too much about. The one thing you
do want to make sure you do with a metal topsheet is to counter
sink the screw holes.

_ A last caution, I am just a cheap ******* who is unwilling to
hand $40 bucks to a ski shop to have a teenager[2] drill my
skis. You might want to find somebody that claims to know
what they are doing... A very hand resource for the home ski
tech is the Tognar catalog. I buy something every year just so
I'll keep getting the catalog.

http://www.tognar.com/

_ Booker C. Bense



[1]- Chord length is the length of a string stretched from the
ski tip to tail. Not as useful as it used to be with all the
strange things ski manufacturers do to tips these days. Boot
center if marked is by far the better way to go.

[2]- Okay, there are some shops that do it right with experienced
people. But if you can't see a chairlift from the front door,
chances are the shop isn't one of them.

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  #3  
Old November 3rd 03, 06:57 PM
Greg
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Default



lac.stanford.edu wrote:
Pretty much alpine ski comes with a boot center mark these days and I would use that
if at all possible.


I agree. The ski manufacturer should know where the weight should go on
the ski, so use their mark if there is one. I have a pair of Tua
Excaliburs with Diamir II bindings mounted at chord center. I have
always felt that they were a little bit too far back.

-Greg

  #4  
Old November 3rd 03, 07:19 PM
Jonathan Shefftz
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Posts: n/a
Default

I took a few runs once on my brother's identical setup -- heavy, but
impressive!

Anyway, ignore the boot size (i.e., 26.0/26.5) and instead go by the
boot sole length (i.e., 30.5cm/305mm).

You might want to skip all the other alignment methods and just match
up the ball of your foot with the middle of the ski’s contact
length - hard to measure, but it’s what every other technique is
trying to simulate.

Here are some other Diamir mounting tips I copied from someone else's
post a few yrs ago -- I can't vouch for how well they work, but they
certainly seem well thought out:

*****

Regarding mounting the bindings, the real challenge is getting the
template located correctly fore & aft and making sure it's accurately
centered on the ski. The real risk is if the bindings end up slightly
angled on the long axis of the ski. Not an easy problem to solve.

Here's what I've learned from mounting about six pair of these.
1. Locating binding fore & aft: Measure your boot to determine the
sole length in mm's. The sole length should be stamped on the side of
the boot. My boots, for example, have a 299mm sole length. On the
template, there are a series of boot sole lengths marked off in cms.
Find the length that most closely corresponds to your sole length (in
my case a 299 mm boot sole would be located just short of the 30 cm
line) and match that up with the boot sole midpoint line on your skis.
This gives you the correct fore & aft location. If your skis don't
have a midsole mark, you can mount using the toe of the boot method.
Let me know if that's the case, and I'll give you the details for that
if you don't know them already.

2. Locating binding on the long axis: Getting the binding accurately
centered is critical. There are centering lines on both ends of the
template. Measure the width of the ski in the area where the centering
lines will be located and mark the center point on the ski with a
pencil. Accurately measuring the center point can be hard on cap skis.
It's easier if the skis have vertical sidewalls. Take your time in
measuring for the center point and check your work a couple of times
to make sure you're right on center. The template also has a series of
lines along the edges on both ends that will also help you get it
centered. Do not trust the graphics of the ski as reference points.
Often times the graphics are not perfectly centered on the top of the
ski. I find that if I get one end located and centered, I can then
slowly bring the other end of the template down and center it. Don't
be afraid to pull the template up multiple times if you're not right
on the marks. It has enough stickum to be used several times. An extra
set of eyes to look at the template once you think you've got it in
the right spot are helpful because you can get a bit cross-eyed
looking at it.

3. Punch: Once you're confident that you've got the template in the
right spot and have checked and rechecked your measurements for & aft
and side to side, take a punch, put it in the crosshairs of the
circles on the template and give it a good whack with a hammer. Make
sure you hit the right holes on the heel piece. The dark circles are
for the medium length binding. Use the spots marked S or XL only if
you've got a small or XL binding. There are four holes for the toe
piece and three for the heel piece.

4. Drill: Ideally you'll have a 4.1 mm x 9 mm bit with a stop on it to
drill the holes. If you don't, figure out what the English equivalent
of a 4.1 mm bit is. I think its a 5/32" but you'll have to do some
higher math or check in a hardware store to make sure you've got the
right sized bit. If you end up using a drill without a stop, wrap some
tape around the shaft of the drill at the proper depth so that you
don't have the thrill of drilling right through the ski. Use a sharp
bit because it won't tend to "run" sideways when you drill. If your
drill doesn't have a stop, you should very lightly countersink the
holes. Don't remove too much of the top sheet of plastic, but a little
bit of countersink keeps the holes from turning into little volcano
shaped things that keep the binding from laying flat on the ski. I
think it's best to drill and mount one ski at a time. That way if you
screw up on the first one, you won't have already drilled and made the
same mistake on the second one. You can punch both of them at the same
time, but wait to drill the second one until the first one is mounted.

5. Screw: Mount the heel piece first and tighten the screws down. I
put a drop of Elmer's white glue in the holes before I screw them
down. I thinks there's a thin, clear plastic spacer that goes under
the heel piece. The printed directions are pretty good for this part.
Once the heel unit is mounted, screw in the toe piece. There's a
plastic piece that goes between the binding and the ski. Do the front
screws first and don't tighten them all the way down. Flip the rail up
perpendicular and screw in the remaining two screws, but don't snug
them up. Bring the rail down and make sure that it drops squarely into
the opening in the heel piece. If it's a little off center you can
give the whole thing a bit of a twist to line it up and then crank the
screws down to hold it in the right spot. Make sure that the binding
is snugged down flat on the ski. If the rail rubs a little bit on one
side, its not a big deal. The main thing is to check to make sure that
the whole unit is on straight and not aiming off into left field or
right field. If you did your measuring right, there's no problem. Once
you do one ski and get it right, then repeat the process for the
second ski.

6. Adjusting: Cock the heel piece and put the boot in the binding.
Flip the climbing aid up to its highest position (with the boot in the
binding) and turn the screw at the rear end of the center rail to
adjust for length. The heel piece has to be in the closed position for
this to work right. When the head of the screw is flush with the
plastic housing, you've got the correct amount of forward pressure.
Put the boot in and out of the binding a few times and recheck to make
sure that the screw is flush. Adjust it if it's not. Adjust the toe
height by turning the screw on the top of the toe piece. You want to
have about 1mm of space between the boot sole and the skid plate. I've
got a thin piece of plastic about the thickness of a credit card that
I use as a feeler guage to check this. Check to see that toe of the
boot recenters itself when you give it a firm push from the side. If
it doesn't, you've either go too much down pressure or too much
forward pressure or both. Back off the forward pressure a bit and if
the boot still hangs up, then back off on the toe piece height
adjustment screw. Fiddle with these two until you get the boot
securely in the binding, but able to recenter.

7. Release settings: The forward release is controlled by a screw on
the top of the heel unit. There's a window on the heel piece that has
the DIN release values marked The lateral release is adjusted by a
screw on the front of the toe unit. There's a window on the center
rail that has the DIN release values for the toe piece. The release
settings are up to you. If you can find a shop that works on these,
they could check them for you. Most shops won't touch them. There's a
chart on the directions that has the release values.

8. Brakes & crampons: If you use them, the brakes screw onto the heel
piece. There's a plastic heel plate that you flip out with a
screwdriver and the brakes screw into the holes underneath with the
two screws provided. I recommend brakes over straps particularly when
things start to slide. The crampons have little ears on the front that
slip into slots in the toe piece and then they clamp down onto the
center rail. Most of the time you carry them around wondering why you
bother with them, but when you need them, you wouldn't want to be
without them.

9. Go skiing:
  #5  
Old November 4th 03, 02:38 AM
Craig
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Default

I took a few runs once on my brother's identical setup -- heavy, but
impressive!


I heard these are a nice ski, and I do a lot more heli then touring
right now, but am trying to get in good enough shape to survive the
unassisted ascents.

Anyway, ignore the boot size (i.e., 26.0/26.5) and instead go by the
boot sole length (i.e., 30.5cm/305mm).


Yes, that makes sense now.

You might want to skip all the other alignment methods and just match
up the ball of your foot with the middle of the ski’s contact
length - hard to measure, but it’s what every other technique is
trying to simulate.


Not sure what the #8217;s is but my guess is to find the chord centre
of the radius that provides the ski's camber. I placed my skis on a
flat surface and with a strong light I could accurately determine
where the main arc of the ski intersected with the tip and tail radii.
I measured the straight line distance of this chord, bisected it and
marked that point on the skis. Next I positioned my foot on the ski
with the ball of my foot directly over this mark, and marked my toe
and heel positions. Halfway between these 2 marks I drew the
approximate foot centre and it aligned almost perfectly with the
factory marking. Eureka!

So all of your advice re the factory marking is right on the
money...many thanks!

A few more details are left for me to sort out though:

1. Instruction say to not bend the ski while drilling the holes. I
sort of think the ski should be clamped flat while I position under my
drill press.

2. Have read lots about the virtues of epoxy and white waterproof
glues. No mention of the latest polyurethanes, are these suitable?

3. Are my Dynastar's a foam core? Not sure I really need to know
this ahead of time but was curious.

Thanks.

Craig
  #6  
Old November 4th 03, 03:49 AM
Ulrich Hausmann
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Craig wrote:


Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale
from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm
in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose
the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so
the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm.


the effective length of the sole of the boot is, what you need (the 26 /
26.5 thing is the so called boot volume measurement, invented by salomon
in the 70s with their first ski boots. normally two sizes come in one
shell). the sole length is printed somewhere laterally on the boots (but
you can also measure by yourself).

Not Marked for Centre of Boot


on the boot. 1/2 of the sole length; in your cas 15,25 cm

You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark
of the template at this location.


take the real length (not what is written on the ski), i.e. the direct
line between tail and tip. e.g. most ski's where's written on 180 cm
effectively are 177 or so.

I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method
(centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than
the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite
a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory
mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot?


that big difference sounds strange. check with the balance point, i.e.
that line, where the ski's back half and forward half are in balance and
check if the difference is as big.

but: recently i note the ski producers are putting farther forward the
marking line for the boot center. may be that's due to the new
constructions with closer radius, different weight distribution ecc.
anyway, that difference is enormous. what skis do you have, btw?

hope this helps a little bit,

ulrich

  #7  
Old November 4th 03, 03:55 PM
Hyva Meininki
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Default

(Craig) wrote in message . com...
Hi,

I am going to be mounting a pair of Fritschi Freeride's to Dynastar
Intuitiv's (Inspired by J. Nobis) and had a few basic questions before
I begin.

The Fritschi's came with instructions and a mounting template, the
Dynastars have a 10mm long black mark on the top labelled ø 4.1 (the
first symbol, an "o" with a slash through it, is the greek letter
phi).

The Fritschi instruction's provide 2 ways of aligning the template to
the ski, depending if the ski is marked for the centre of the boot or
not.

Marked for Centre of Boot

Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale
from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm
in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose
the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so
the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm.

Not Marked for Centre of Boot

You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark
of the template at this location.

I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method
(centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than
the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite
a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory
mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot?

My last question is then the label ø 4.1 at the black mark. I am
assuming that it refers to the diameter in mm that the holes should be
drilled for the screws that mount the bindings. This also indicates
(according to the Frtischi instruction's) that the ski has an
integrated steel plate, and once the hole is drilled it should be
tapped. This is a bit confusing to me, as the screw thread is not a
standard machine thread and I am not aware of taps for these types of
threads. Alternatively I show a #12 - 24 threads per inch about the
closest to the screw's major diameter. I tested this in a scrap piece
of metal, where I drilled a 4.1mm hole then ran the tap through it.
The screw seemed to be able to enter just fine. Hopefully this is the
correct method to use.

Many thanks for your time and help.


Craig


You could follow the guidelines presented at

http://www.telemarktips.com/bindingMt2.html

for mounting telemark bindings. The ball of foot (BOF) should be
aligned with the centre running surface (CRS) of the ski. The methods
for determining the BOF and CRS are available at am. site. Good luck.

!hyva
  #8  
Old November 4th 03, 06:15 PM
Ulrich Hausmann
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Hyva Meininki wrote:

You could follow the guidelines presented at

http://www.telemarktips.com/bindingMt2.html

for mounting telemark bindings. The ball of foot (BOF) should be
aligned with the centre running surface (CRS) of the ski. The methods
for determining the BOF and CRS are available at am. site. Good luck.

!hyva


i do not think it's a good idea to mount alpine bindings in that way.
here you see a good example on how the weight and pressure is
distributed in alpine skiing (freeriding does not differ that much):

http://www.sciaremag.it/tecnica16.html

i'd rather go for either mid shoe marking on the ski, which normally is
done by the producer in relation the radius of the ski.

greetings,

ulrich

 




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