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Going off trail



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 7th 06, 12:06 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Booker C. Bense
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Posts: 2
Default Going off trail

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In article ,
Christos Dimitrakakis wrote:
Hello, I have to admit that I am extremely confused as to what type of ski
I would need to buy. The basic question is what type of ski I should buy
for wandering around the snow with my skis.

I had been introduced to skiing via the alpine downhill skiing route, with
the standard relatively wide fixed-binding, plastic boot, metal-edged
skis. I skied around 10 times before deciding that I really hated
spending 90% of my time on freezing lifts and the rest 10% on extremely
steep downhill tracks. I guess those are called 'Alpine' skis.

Then I discovered cross-country skiing (the standard olympic type) and
I've had a lot of fun with it, mostly with skate-type skis. I love the
movement, the soft boots, the light skis, but it seems pretty much
impossible to go downhill on anything more than the gentlest slopes. I
think those are called 'XC' and 'Skate' skis, or occasionally 'Nordic'
skis.


The ski you want doesn't exist. There isn't a ski out there that
doesn't require some skill and effort to turn. You can turn on XC
skate skis, but it requires practice. Learning some basic turning
skills on your current skate skis will open up a lot of terrain.

Find a gentle groomed slope and practice turning. No matter what
ski you end up with, you'll be very stuck in your terrain choices
unless you learn to turn beyond a snowplow or skate turn. Neither
of those turns work very well in most ungroomed snow conditions.

If you don't currently own skis, I'd guess you want something
like a Classic XC ski in either waxless or waxable version,
depending on whether you want to learn to use kick wax or
not. Most of these skis are much harder to turn than typical
skate skis. I'd get some combi boots to go with that as they
offer more support than a skate boot.

As you've no doubt learned from the replies, picking gear for
making your own tracks is about what compromises you are willing
to accept. There is a wide range of gear and opinions and it
all depends on what you want to do. Here's a web page that
discusses the various options and choices for skis that are
called "Backcountry Skis" at least in the USA.

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirt...r/bc-skis.html

If you just want to get out in the woods, take a serious look at
snowshoes.

_ Booker C. Bense

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  #22  
Old November 7th 06, 02:10 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
gr
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Posts: 76
Default Going off trail

Dan wrote:
gr wrote:

New in the past couple years wax grip tape also
works very well, lasts hundreds of km, has a very wide temp range, and
was what finally worked for me and wax.


Where do I get some?

I used to wax, but don't go quite often enough (and have to contend with
Sierra changing conditions) to bother any more, but that sounds like it
might work.

It would be fun to resurrect the old Fishers!

Dan

I got some from here I think!
http://www.skinnyskis.com/P_Start_Wax_Grip_Tape.aspx
gr
  #23  
Old November 7th 06, 03:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Peter Clinch wrote
My only specific gear suggestion for boot/binding was NNN BC


Peter Clinch wrote earlier, in the post which I replied to
light tele gear


Sorry looks like I misunderstood. I didn't know that NNN BC was a form of
"telemark" gear.

So now it looks like Peter was claiming that there are lots of places in the
European Alps with interesting ungroomed touring that is suited for NNN BC.
I do not agree with that claim.

I think rather that most places in the Alps that would have been suitable
for such NNN BC touring already normally have a groomed track.

Of course you could choose to ski a few meters off to the side of the track
just to feel the ungroomed snow. Or further off into some field nearby. I do
that sort of thing all the time on my SNS bindings. Why would I want some
incompatible SNS BC or NNN BC binding just for that? If I use an SNS
binding, then I already own boots I can use with it. Anyway in that
situation the NNN BC binding is not getting me into some different area I
couldn't reach with my track skis, just a slight variation within the same
area -- a variation that _could_ have reached on my SNS binding with a
little more careful maneuvering.

Yes there are pretty places in the world (e.g. Canada?) with gentle terrain
with gentle access -- but no groomed track access, and no "hiking trail"
track customarily set by other skiers.

I'm only doubting that there's many places like that near Lausanne. I'm
simply saying that if you want to purchase some new gear to take you to lots
of interesting + pretty places you couldn't get access to by a groomed
track, then around Lausanne the best bet is Alpine Touring / Randonnee.

Ken


  #24  
Old November 7th 06, 03:19 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Terje Mathisen wrote
Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route" has been done with
nordic touring skis.


Interesting claim. Never heard it before. I assume you mean some route
between like Argentiere and Zermatt. How about some details and support?

Given the history of this thread, I guess I'd better ask, What's a "nordic
touring ski"? Is it NNN BC?

What would you guess is the fastest time on "nordic touring skis" from
Zermatt to Verbier?

it is at least halfway possible to ski flat areas on the telemark skis.


Sounds like you do not understand the Scarpa F1 boot -- which is
understandable, because it's a really amazing concept.

It's easier to tour flat on Scarpa F1s than on lots of telemark boots. The
Scarpa F1 basically _is_ a light telemark boot -- without the stupid
duckbill on the toe. Instead it has some little hardware thingees that make
it ingeniously compatible with an Alpine Touring binding which is lighter
than most telemark bindings.

"telemark skis"?
If there's some point being made about the suitability of the _ski_ to
gentle terrain, I will point out that there's no reason why grip wax or
klister cannot be applied to the base of a light Alpine Touring ski. And no
reason why "kicker skins" cannot be put on Alpine Touring skis.

Ken


  #25  
Old November 7th 06, 03:42 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Terje Mathisen wrote
... with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges and
NNN BC bindings can do it all.


What's this heavy NNN BC stuff, Terje?
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic on
your skating skis?

Ken


  #26  
Old November 7th 06, 09:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:

It's easier to tour flat on Scarpa F1s than on lots of telemark boots. The
Scarpa F1 basically _is_ a light telemark boot -- without the stupid
duckbill on the toe.


Light for a plastic telemark boot, certainly, but there are no genuinely
light plastic telemark boots, only less heavy ones.

"telemark skis"?
If there's some point being made about the suitability of the _ski_ to
gentle terrain, I will point out that there's no reason why grip wax or
klister cannot be applied to the base of a light Alpine Touring ski.


Indeed no reason not to, but the fact is you'll be putting more on again
sooner because there isn't a wax pocket to push the wax clear of the
snow as you glide.

What you're suggesting is viable and can certainly be done, but I still
don't see it as anything like optimum for what the OP was after.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #27  
Old November 7th 06, 09:12 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:

So now it looks like Peter was claiming that there are lots of places in the
European Alps with interesting ungroomed touring that is suited for NNN BC.
I do not agree with that claim.


Yet the OP seems to have identified a task that's just a step up from
his track skis. I'm just taking him at his word.

Of course you could choose to ski a few meters off to the side of the track
just to feel the ungroomed snow. Or further off into some field nearby. I do
that sort of thing all the time on my SNS bindings. Why would I want some
incompatible SNS BC or NNN BC binding just for that?


I use my SNS bindings for that too, but having had a fair bit of
experience now I can use skill to compensate for the shortcomings of the
equipment, and it does have shortcomings. One of the most obvious
shortcomings of SNS is the boots when you have to get off the skis:
bloody dangerous on ice, for example. I carry a pair of Neos with me if
I'm off the beaten track for that sort of thing, but it's a pain and if
my non-track typical day was just a /bit/ beyond then I'd sooner use NNN
BC than tele or randonee, and if I didn't have the use for heavier gear
that I *do* have I'd have plenty of budget for a more optimal setup (and
still a hell of a lot of change from F1s, dynafit and superlight edged
skis).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #28  
Old November 7th 06, 09:58 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

AES wrote:

As a matter of curiousity, why does NNN BC exist, or why did it come
into being, in competition with 3 pin bindings?


I suspect it's related to the fact that we've been told for many years
that the duckbill toe is On The Way Out... ;-/ SNS/NNN have at least
managed to replace 50mm duckbills and 75mm track boots, but the BC
hasn't removed duckbills because people persist in buying them ;-)

I happen to use NNN BC with waxless edged skiis (Karhu 10th Mountain or
the like) for some very low-key backcountry exploring around Lake Tahoe
(climb up a ridge or peak, maybe on an unplowed Forest Service road;
admire the view; very cautiously ski back down, with hardly any downhill
turns), because that's the equipment I was pointed to initially. But
the choice in boots seems much more limited for NNN BC than for 3 pin.


Boot choice seems to be a function of national importers and local
stockists as much as actual production. In the UK it's very hard to
find much choice in boots at all: you can have any of the heavy plastic
tele, a couple of leather tele and some token track models and not much
else (nobody seems to do SNS in the UK now, and Salomon UK don't seem to
realise they actually sell nordic gear!). In Alpine areas where people
tend to be on tracks for Nordic the BC stuff is there rather than
toruing duckbills and is, I think, in large part for those folk that
want boots with a decent sole for off the ski. Norway seems to have a
relatively good choice in everything, though ofcourse it costs a fortune :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #29  
Old November 7th 06, 05:31 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Dan
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Posts: 14
Default Going off trail

gr wrote:
Dan wrote:
gr wrote:

New in the past couple years wax grip tape also
works very well, lasts hundreds of km, has a very wide temp range,
and was what finally worked for me and wax.


Where do I get some?

I used to wax, but don't go quite often enough (and have to contend
with Sierra changing conditions) to bother any more, but that sounds
like it might work.

It would be fun to resurrect the old Fishers!

Dan

I got some from here I think!
http://www.skinnyskis.com/P_Start_Wax_Grip_Tape.aspx
gr


Thanks, I'll give it a try. I hate the sound waxless bases make, though
I do like the skis well enough.

Dan
  #30  
Old November 7th 06, 07:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Terje Mathisen
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Posts: 262
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
Afaik all the fastest traverses of the "Haute Route" has been done with
nordic touring skis.


Interesting claim. Never heard it before. I assume you mean some route
between like Argentiere and Zermatt. How about some details and support?


I have no personal experience of this, which is why I put the name in
quotes, but I've been told so by people I trust.

OTOH I have my own experience which is that it is perfectly possible to
climb up & down _very_ steep mountains in competition xc gear, even if
the snow varies between glazed, packed drifts and sudden powder pockets.

Yes, you have to either go _very_ slow, which would exhaust you, or just
be a good skier willing to take a few falls.

For the rest, let's just agree to disagree, OK?

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
 




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