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Going off trail



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 6th 06, 02:59 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:

Yes. But most of that terrain is not within two hours drive from Lausanne,
Switzerland. The terrain in the European Alps which is within two hours
drive from Lausanne happens to be disproportionately skewed toward Alpine
Touring / randonnee gear.


That the terrain is skewed for randonee on steep stuff isn't the point:
that isn't what the OP seems to want to *do*, and there is /still/
plenty of alternative terrain that may not be advertised in brochures
but is nonetheless there and well suited to the skiing he claims to want
to do.

Sounds like you've never tried a pair of Scarpa F1 boots on truly light
skis.


I haven't, but since I've yet to encounter any "truly light" skis with
metal edges, and using F1s on edgeless skis strikes me as a bit silly, I
doubt if you have either!
Your solution may well be better for what /you/ want, but the OP wants
the option of track work and moderate descents where "moderate" means
"just a bit beyond dedicated track skis". NNN BC and a compatible light
boot combined with a relatively narrow touring ski (maybe with an edge,
maybe not) makes much more sense for this than any randonee setup AFAICT.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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  #12  
Old November 6th 06, 03:18 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Martin Thornquist wrote
... you need relatively skinny skis to fit well in prepared
tracks. This is at odds with going off-track in deep snow,
for that you want wider skis.


Good point. A key reason why most "telemark" setups don't solve the problem.

What I use for most of my gentle ungroomed tours is a light ski, just wide
enough to fit in most groomed tracks, with an SNS Profil track binding
mounted on it. I've got several pairs of skis set up like that, some
metal-edged some not, some with no-wax bases some waxable.

In very good snow conditions, I've skied 25+ degree slopes on SNS track
bindings (e.g. Cornice Bowl at Mammoth, various bump runs at Lake Louise and
Mammoth) -- I'm sure others have done steeper and more technically difficult
terrain or snow. Of course in difficult snow conditions even a 10 degree
slope is tough on that equipment. But I wouldn't care, since if the
off-piste snow was difficult and un-fun, I'd be skiing on the groomed track.

I used to do lots of skiing on light telemark gear, including a sizable
number of tours in the Alps within two hours of Lausanne. But now there's
no open "role" in my "arsenal" of skis for telemark bindings and boots.
What's happened in recent years is that my usable range of SNS track
bindings on track-compatible skis has expanded outward and upward, and my
comfortable range with Alpine Touring / randonnee boots and bindings has
extended downward.

The "middle range of telemark-optimal touring is too small to be worth it
for me -- I can't justify maintaining a third kind of incompatible gear for
such a small payoff. And I have several athletic skiing friends in different
countries with graduate technical education like the original poster, who've
made the same choice of limiting to two kinds of ski gear: track skis
(mostly for skating) and Alpine Touring skis for both moderate and steep
touring. Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.

Ken


  #13  
Old November 6th 06, 03:39 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Peter Clinch wrote
there is /still/ plenty of alternative terrain that may not be advertised
in brochures but is nonetheless there and well suited to the skiing he
claims to want to do.


How much ski touring have you actually done within two hours drive from
Lausanne?

How about just tell us about three interesting and pretty touring areas
around Lausanne which get reliable snow -- and
(1) are suitable for the "light tele" gear (but mounted on skis narrow
enough to fit into groomed Classic ski tracks, and where the whole setup is
at least 1 kg _lighter_ than Scarpa F1 boots + Dynafit binding + light
randonnee racing skis),
but
(2) are _not_ suitable for Scarpa F1 boots with light randonnee skis.
(3) are _not_ suitable for wider "cross-country" skis with an SNS Profil
binding.

Ken


  #14  
Old November 6th 06, 03:43 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:

Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.


Telemarking wasn't mentioned by the OP, and of course many people on
free heel gear never use (or even aspire to use) a telemark turn. There
is a middle ground between track bindings and free heel downhill
("telemark") gear designed and mainly used for exactly what the OP wants
here.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #15  
Old November 6th 06, 03:56 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:

How about just tell us about three interesting and pretty touring areas
around Lausanne which get reliable snow -- and
(1) are suitable for the "light tele" gear (but mounted on skis narrow
enough to fit into groomed Classic ski tracks, and where the whole setup is
at least 1 kg _lighter_ than Scarpa F1 boots + Dynafit binding + light
randonnee racing skis),
but
(2) are _not_ suitable for Scarpa F1 boots with light randonnee skis.
(3) are _not_ suitable for wider "cross-country" skis with an SNS Profil
binding.


You can go and ski around the local municipal park on light gear if you
want, or around the local farms, or anything like that where the terrain
is fairly benign but nobody's driven a track-cutter. Why on earth would
anyone want to do that in randonee gear, unless randonee gear was all
you had? Might not be your idea of "pretty" or "interesting", but
people manage to have scenic fun doing it.

My only specific gear suggestion for boot/binding was NNN BC, which is
closer to straight SNS Profil than it is to a light tele pin setup, but
is a bit chunkier for better downhill control, though substantially less
than a "proper" tele setup.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #16  
Old November 6th 06, 04:10 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Dan
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Posts: 14
Default Going off trail

gr wrote:

New in the past couple years wax grip tape also
works very well, lasts hundreds of km, has a very wide temp range, and
was what finally worked for me and wax.


Where do I get some?

I used to wax, but don't go quite often enough (and have to contend with
Sierra changing conditions) to bother any more, but that sounds like it
might work.

It would be fun to resurrect the old Fishers!

Dan
  #17  
Old November 6th 06, 04:25 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
(snip)
touring. Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.


I have a fair number of free-heel friends (though I'm not
one) who will tell you differently.

AT is great coming from an Alpine background, but I would
think that "Light Tele" would be equally great coming from
a touring/cross-country/Nordic background.
  #18  
Old November 6th 06, 06:46 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
AES
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Posts: 21
Default Going off trail

In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:

"just a bit beyond dedicated track skis". NNN BC and a compatible light
boot combined with a relatively narrow touring ski (maybe with an edge,
maybe not) makes much more sense for this than any randonee setup


As a matter of curiousity, why does NNN BC exist, or why did it come
into being, in competition with 3 pin bindings?

I happen to use NNN BC with waxless edged skiis (Karhu 10th Mountain or
the like) for some very low-key backcountry exploring around Lake Tahoe
(climb up a ridge or peak, maybe on an unplowed Forest Service road;
admire the view; very cautiously ski back down, with hardly any downhill
turns), because that's the equipment I was pointed to initially. But
the choice in boots seems much more limited for NNN BC than for 3 pin.
  #19  
Old November 6th 06, 07:09 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Terje Mathisen
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Posts: 262
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
The "middle range of telemark-optimal touring is too small to be worth it
for me -- I can't justify maintaining a third kind of incompatible gear for
such a small payoff. And I have several athletic skiing friends in different
countries with graduate technical education like the original poster, who've
made the same choice of limiting to two kinds of ski gear: track skis
(mostly for skating) and Alpine Touring skis for both moderate and steep
touring. Except for a few die-hards, bored lift-served downhill skiers, and
Norwegians, telemarking is over.


Yes and no:

I agree that there's no room at all for three incompatible setups, but
I'd skip the alpine touring/randonne gear instead of the telemark skis,
simply because it is at least halfway possible to ski flat areas on the
telemark skis.

OTOH, with sufficient technical ability, a skinny pair with metal edges
and NNN BC bindings can do it all. Afaik all the fastest traverses of
the "Haute Route" (sp?) has been done with nordic touring skis.

Terje

--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  #20  
Old November 6th 06, 09:42 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Edgar
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Posts: 61
Default Going off trail

Terje Mathisen wrote:


I agree that there's no room at all for three incompatible setups, but
I'd skip the alpine touring/randonne gear instead of the telemark skis,
simply because it is at least halfway possible to ski flat areas on the
telemark skis....


Terje


Terje has a good point about sking the flat areas.

Last winter I skied out from Assiniboine Lodge (Canada) with a small
group with a mix of equipment ranging from AT to traditional
backcountry skis (65mm steel edges) with 3-pin cable and NNN-BC type
binding/boot combinations and inb-between gear.

The ski out from Assiniboine included one or two KM of steep, narrow
switchback type trails and we were carrying packs. The AT gear was the
right gear for the steep descent with quick short-radius turns and the
rest of us went into survival mode.

But two thirds of the 28 or 29 KM ski out were flat to rolling then
several KMs of climbing at the end of the day. The ligher gear that
could glide was the right gear for rolling terrain and the climb. The
AT gear was slow and heavy. The AT gear was also harder to wax (single
camber). The climbs were not steep enough to require skins.

I had my Fisher Outtabounds (88-68-78mm w/ steel edges) with Garmont
Excursion plastic touring boots which was a compromise between
AT/Telemark gear and the mountain touring gear. The Outtabounds were
"in-between" gear doing neither the steep descents well nor the flats
with ease. But they also were easier to handle on the steep
swithcbacks than the NNN-BC skis and faster on the flats and climbs
than the AT gear.

So the right answer is that their is no right answer to the question
about what is the best kind of gear for off-trail skiing unless
Christos (orignal post) can better define the terrain to be skiied.
That said the best answer to Christos may be to pick gear that is
similar to the gear used by the rest of the skiers in your group.

Edgar

 




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