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Going off trail



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 4th 06, 05:24 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Christos Dimitrakakis
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Posts: 2
Default Going off trail

Hello, I have to admit that I am extremely confused as to what type of ski
I would need to buy. The basic question is what type of ski I should buy
for wandering around the snow with my skis.

I had been introduced to skiing via the alpine downhill skiing route, with
the standard relatively wide fixed-binding, plastic boot, metal-edged
skis. I skied around 10 times before deciding that I really hated
spending 90% of my time on freezing lifts and the rest 10% on extremely
steep downhill tracks. I guess those are called 'Alpine' skis.

Then I discovered cross-country skiing (the standard olympic type) and
I've had a lot of fun with it, mostly with skate-type skis. I love the
movement, the soft boots, the light skis, but it seems pretty much
impossible to go downhill on anything more than the gentlest slopes. I
think those are called 'XC' and 'Skate' skis, or occasionally 'Nordic'
skis.

I've also tried ski touring once and I loved the concept - the skis
resembled more the traditional alpine skis, with almost exactly the same
boot, a fixed/release binding, wide edged skis and skins. I think those
are actually called "AT" skis, or "skis de rando" I think the Fischer AMC
skis are of this type. However I found going downhill with such skis
a bit uncomfortable as they are far too heavy.

Then I've seen a few other types which seem to be somewhere between XC and
AT skis.. i.e. Fischer seems to have the S-Bound series (i.e. Outbound
Crown which seems to be a waxless ski) and the Backcountry series (i.e.
Country Crown, which seems to be a waxless ski). It also seems that you
are supposed to be wearing those skis with relatively soft leather boots -
slightly harder than skating boots, but much softer than AT boots. The
equipment is also much much much cheaper.

So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.
I guess I could go and rent a couple of different types of equipment this
season to see what is best for me, but other than that, do you have some
further advice so that I can narrow down choice?

Thanks,
Christos

--
Christos Dimitrakakis
Homepage: http://www.idiap.ch/~dimitrak/main.html
Music: http://olethros.dmusic.com


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  #2  
Old November 4th 06, 10:33 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Terje Mathisen
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Posts: 262
Default Going off trail

Christos Dimitrakakis wrote:
So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.
I guess I could go and rent a couple of different types of equipment this
season to see what is best for me, but other than that, do you have some
further advice so that I can narrow down choice?


You should probably get a lightweight touring xc ski, definitely not one
of those really heavy 'backcountry' skis with (partial) metal edges etc.

Personally I do all my skiing on my competition classic skis, because I
hate dragging any extra weight around, but it must be admitted that a
somewhat wider skis with at least a little incut is much easier to
control in powder!

My most serious backcountry trip was probably the 8-day, 300 km trek
from Morgedal in Telemark to Lillehammer the week before the '94
olympics. This was in _very_ deep fresh powder, at least all the parts
below the tree line, so breaking trail was very tough. OTOH I got to
rest for about 50 minutes between each time I had one of the two first
positions. (We were 12 skiers, the front skier broke trail for 5 minutes
before stopping and re-entering the line at the back end.)

The only time I really missed a wider ski was when skiing down a long,
smooth slope towards Kalhovd on the Hardangervidda plateau: The other
guys could just stand up & rest, while I had to work since I sunk too
deep into the snow. :-(

Terje
--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
  #3  
Old November 5th 06, 02:03 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
AES
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Posts: 21
Default Going off trail

In article ,
Terje Mathisen wrote:


You should probably get a lightweight touring xc ski, definitely not one
of those really heavy 'backcountry' skis with (partial) metal edges etc.


I don't consider myself any kind of expert on this subject -- but in my
experience if you're likely to encounter a variety of snow conditions,
including especially hard pack or even a bit icy surfaces on any kind of
slope or gradient, even quite moderate, you absolutely want metal edges
for grip and control, weight or no weight.
  #4  
Old November 5th 06, 02:57 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
VtSkier
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Posts: 1,233
Default Going off trail

Christos Dimitrakakis wrote:
Hello, I have to admit that I am extremely confused as to what type of ski
I would need to buy. The basic question is what type of ski I should buy
for wandering around the snow with my skis.

I had been introduced to skiing via the alpine downhill skiing route, with
the standard relatively wide fixed-binding, plastic boot, metal-edged
skis. I skied around 10 times before deciding that I really hated
spending 90% of my time on freezing lifts and the rest 10% on extremely
steep downhill tracks. I guess those are called 'Alpine' skis.

Then I discovered cross-country skiing (the standard olympic type) and
I've had a lot of fun with it, mostly with skate-type skis. I love the
movement, the soft boots, the light skis, but it seems pretty much
impossible to go downhill on anything more than the gentlest slopes. I
think those are called 'XC' and 'Skate' skis, or occasionally 'Nordic'
skis.

I've also tried ski touring once and I loved the concept - the skis
resembled more the traditional alpine skis, with almost exactly the same
boot, a fixed/release binding, wide edged skis and skins. I think those
are actually called "AT" skis, or "skis de rando" I think the Fischer AMC
skis are of this type. However I found going downhill with such skis
a bit uncomfortable as they are far too heavy.

Then I've seen a few other types which seem to be somewhere between XC and
AT skis.. i.e. Fischer seems to have the S-Bound series (i.e. Outbound
Crown which seems to be a waxless ski) and the Backcountry series (i.e.
Country Crown, which seems to be a waxless ski). It also seems that you
are supposed to be wearing those skis with relatively soft leather boots -
slightly harder than skating boots, but much softer than AT boots. The
equipment is also much much much cheaper.

So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.
I guess I could go and rent a couple of different types of equipment this
season to see what is best for me, but other than that, do you have some
further advice so that I can narrow down choice?

Thanks,
Christos


If I were you I'd gasp take up telemark skiing. It is
similar to other nordic styles except that it gives you
much more downhill control.

For what I think you are looking for, what is now called
"light" telemark equipment would suit. This would be
maybe leather boots, a cable binding and fairly wide
skis with maybe a no-wax touring type base and a set
of "skins" for steeper ascents. Look also at Telemark
Tips on line. Google if you need to.

VtSkier
  #5  
Old November 5th 06, 04:07 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Hal Murray
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Posts: 3
Default Going off trail

So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.
I guess I could go and rent a couple of different types of equipment this
season to see what is best for me, but other than that, do you have some
further advice so that I can narrow down choice?


I think you have most of the data.

I'll second the suggestion for metal edges and "light telemark",
but it really depends on what you want to do and what you consider
important. Renting sounds like a good idea.

What are your friends using? Sometimes it's better to have the
same gear as others in your group even if something else would be
"better" for the trip you are on.

One thing worth adding to your list. Light telemark skis come in
single camber and double camber. Double camber work much better
for kick-and-glide. Single camber turn much better/easier on a
downhill run, even if it isn't very steep.

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

  #6  
Old November 5th 06, 12:16 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Hal Murray wrote
What are your friends using? Sometimes it's better
to have the same gear as others in your group ...


Good advice.

I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a pair of
skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or off-piste.


If you're planning to do a lot of your skiing within a couple of hours drive
from Lausanne, Switzerland, I'd recommend getting a pair of light Alpine
Touring or "randonnee" skis and bindings.

Telemark bindings? My experience in the Alps around Lausanne is that those
are used mainly by lift-served downhill skiers who've gotten bored or need
to find some new move to show off for people watching them from the lifts. I
see them only rarely out on ski tours.

A light AT boot (like the Scarpa F1), with a light AT binding (like the
Dynafit Tourlite Tech) mounted on a light AT ski (various models, I've got
Atomic Tourcap Guide), is significantly lighter than almost any "telemark"
setup that would be appropriate for around Lausanne, Switzerland. The Scarpa
F1 has a more flexible sole for "classic" striding than lots of telemark
boots.

On the other hand, if most of your skiing is going to be on holidays to
Norway, then listen to the Norwegians.

Actually for around Lausanne I would recommend accepting another kg in boot
weight and getting a 3-buckle boot for better control. Now you may say you
don't care about steeper downhill slopes, but once you see what range of
tours gets opened up and the range of partners who will accept you if you
can confidently handle a steeper downhill slope, I bet you'll be glad you
went for the extra control.

Ken


  #7  
Old November 5th 06, 06:08 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
gr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 76
Default Going off trail

Christos Dimitrakakis wrote:
Hello, I have to admit that I am extremely confused as to what type of ski
I would need to buy. The basic question is what type of ski I should buy
for wandering around the snow with my skis.

I had been introduced to skiing via the alpine downhill skiing route, with
the standard relatively wide fixed-binding, plastic boot, metal-edged
skis. I skied around 10 times before deciding that I really hated
spending 90% of my time on freezing lifts and the rest 10% on extremely
steep downhill tracks. I guess those are called 'Alpine' skis.

Then I discovered cross-country skiing (the standard olympic type) and
I've had a lot of fun with it, mostly with skate-type skis. I love the
movement, the soft boots, the light skis, but it seems pretty much
impossible to go downhill on anything more than the gentlest slopes. I
think those are called 'XC' and 'Skate' skis, or occasionally 'Nordic'
skis.

I've also tried ski touring once and I loved the concept - the skis
resembled more the traditional alpine skis, with almost exactly the same
boot, a fixed/release binding, wide edged skis and skins. I think those
are actually called "AT" skis, or "skis de rando" I think the Fischer AMC
skis are of this type. However I found going downhill with such skis
a bit uncomfortable as they are far too heavy.

Then I've seen a few other types which seem to be somewhere between XC and
AT skis.. i.e. Fischer seems to have the S-Bound series (i.e. Outbound
Crown which seems to be a waxless ski) and the Backcountry series (i.e.
Country Crown, which seems to be a waxless ski). It also seems that you
are supposed to be wearing those skis with relatively soft leather boots -
slightly harder than skating boots, but much softer than AT boots. The
equipment is also much much much cheaper.

So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.
I guess I could go and rent a couple of different types of equipment this
season to see what is best for me, but other than that, do you have some
further advice so that I can narrow down choice?

Thanks,
Christos

As you have noticed in the various replies, everybody has a different
slant on XC/backcountry skiing. I think this is because they (we) are
all rugged individualists!
For my 2 cents (American idiom meaning my reply may have little value)
1) The skis need to match up to the type of snow you have in your
area; ie; mostly dry/powdery, mostly wet, mostly (shudder) icy, etc.
2) The wider (80mm or so) skis float better in totally unused trails
(ie; wandering through the woods in deep snow, but the glide is poor (I
got rid of my Fischer Outtabounds for this reason). Wide skis also like
to skid sideways a lot more!
3) For me the glide is what it is about and with crummy glide they are
just long snow shoes.
4) Very narrow skis, typically for racing (less than 50mm) glide very
well, but need prepared tracks or groomed wide flat areas for skating.
5) Speaking of skating, lots of glide, the racers like it because it is
10% or so faster, but forget hiking trails or anything ungroomed (except
in rarish strong crust snow that you can skate on top of it all).
6) Classic skiing (striding) lets you go anywhere. Waxless has
considerably less glide but very little prep time (yes you still need to
put something on for glide and to prevent icing, but this can be easy
liquid stuff). Wax type use glide wax front and back, with special grip
wax in the center. New in the past couple years wax grip tape also
works very well, lasts hundreds of km, has a very wide temp range, and
was what finally worked for me and wax.
7) Steel edges have some advantage; protect the bottoms somewhat over
roots and low snow, can give you some edge grip (but nothing like
alpine!). I would only bother if you were doing backcountry backpacking.
  #8  
Old November 6th 06, 08:36 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Martin Thornquist
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Posts: 14
Default Going off trail

[ Christos Dimitrakakis ]

So am I a bit confused. I'd like to have, apart from my skating skis, a
pair of skis that can be used relatively well in either a track or
off-piste. Tackling very steep downhills will not be necessary.


Just one small thing to add to what the others have said, you need
relatively skinny skis to fit well in prepared tracks. This is at odds
with going off-track in deep snow, for that you want wider skis. So
you have to decide if you really want skis that fit in prepared
tracks, if you do then that restricts your choice a fair bit.


Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
  #9  
Old November 6th 06, 08:52 AM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 48
Default Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
ly out on ski tours.

A light AT boot (like the Scarpa F1), with a light AT binding (like the
Dynafit Tourlite Tech) mounted on a light AT ski (various models, I've got
Atomic Tourcap Guide), is significantly lighter than almost any "telemark"
setup that would be appropriate for around Lausanne, Switzerland.


There's plenty skiing in the Alps that doesn't favour randonee gear.
While there's certainly lots of terrain where it's emphatically better
than light tele gear there's no shortage of skiing where that isn't the
case: you've enough scenery in the area to pick and choose for your
style of skiing, and what the OP asked for (a ski light enough for some
track work that can get down modest downhills) is not best suited for
randonee gear, even light randonee gear.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #10  
Old November 6th 06, 02:38 PM posted to rec.skiing.backcountry,rec.skiing.nordic
Ken Roberts
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Posts: 243
Default Going off trail

Peter Clinch wrote
There's plenty skiing in the Alps that doesn't favour randonee gear.


Yes. But most of that terrain is not within two hours drive from Lausanne,
Switzerland. The terrain in the European Alps which is within two hours
drive from Lausanne happens to be disproportionately skewed toward Alpine
Touring / randonnee gear.

not best suited for randonee gear, even light randonee gear.


Sounds like you've never tried a pair of Scarpa F1 boots on truly light
skis.

Ken


 




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