Ski Vs. Road Bike Racing

I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the
subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each.
We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT,
a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing
both riding and skiing competitively.

Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One .
Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines?

My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack
tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different
ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use
your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for
me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively
slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more
conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out
much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard
and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a
weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from
when I was 25% lighter than I am now.

One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to
reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race
vs a similar length ski race.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Pain is pain no matter who dishes it out.

If you can make wave 1 at the Birkie, you might not be far off being a Cat 2
roadie. I don't think one is easier than the other ... except for the crashing.

:^]

jw
milwaukee

Skiing is much easier! Actually, I think it depends on the pack you're
racing with in bike racing. The WISPORT citizen bike race series is a
lot easier than the USCF racing in Minnesota and likely everywhere.
First, there are a lot more bike racers than ski racers. So the
numbers get you pretty good on the bike. I've had some very tough ski
races over the years like the Noquemanon this season where I had way
too much kick wax and had a very slow race. If you've been skiing for
a long time, you get the benefits of better technique and gliding,
knowledge of when to go and when to take it easier, superior downhill
cornering and balance etc. I beat tons of guys skiing who likely have
better aerobic capacity than me. My technique and ski knowledge is
just better from years of doing the sport. In bike racing though,
weaknesses are more easily exposed. If you can hammer, you're going to
do well. You might have to learn the proper gear to be in when climing
a hill, but that is a short learning curve. Biking can be pretty safe
when you get dropped by the pack... I'd say mountain bike racing is
more like ski racing because of single track technique, pacing on the
climbs, skill at descending etc. Road bike racing is all about
strength. The way to get better is to go out and ride tons of miles. I
know this guy I bike with by chance once in a while. I hook up with
him when I'm on my after work ride and he's on his commute home. The
guy rides 25 miles to work in the morning and 25 miles home in the
afternoon. That's 50 miles every work day. How do you compete against
guys like that? Most of the fast bike racers around here go on 70-80
mile training rides a couple of times per week. I'll get in 60+ once
every other Saturday or Sunday around here in the summer. I do think
racing makes you better though. I basically did a 26 mile time trial
yesterday. That can't be too bad for training...

Jay Tegeder
"It's not how fast you go, it's how many fast people you know!" JT



"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. .
I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the
subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each.
We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT,
a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing
both riding and skiing competitively.

Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One .
Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines?

My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack
tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different
ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use
your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for
me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively
slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more
conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out
much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard
and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a
weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from
when I was 25% lighter than I am now.

One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to
reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race
vs a similar length ski race.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Jay,

I take humble exception to skiing being easier! Coming from a bike
racing background, bike racing is a lot easier:-) (maybe there's a clue
there).
It isn't just a matter of miles. You've got to have a strong 'base',
but being able to respond to changes in speed, accelerate, and knowing
*when* to power up are at least as important. With your skiing base and
results, it isn't a matter of base. If you don't have the time to put
in 300mi a week, look at your max distance. If your longest race isn't
more than 45 miles, don't waste your time doing lots of 50-60 mile races
unless you are blowing up 5mi from the finish. Instead, concentrate on
shorter rides with a pace that has significant sections at race pace.
Also, intervals and sprints should be a part of your workout every week.
I used to do hour-long motorpace sessions once a week at 35 or so just
to get comfortable riding at that pace - does wonders when things string
out at 30MPH and your tongue is hanging out. Throwing in a hard effort
2 laps of Afton once every week or so will set you up pretty well for
almost anything MN or WI can throw at you as a 3/4/5 master.

My old 'weekly' training cycle as a Cat3:
Mon - recover - spin 60-90 min, 42x17
Tues - 1hr warmup, 10x200m sprints, 30min cooldown
Wed - 2.5-3hr ride w/hills
Thurs - Intervals
Fri - recovery spin - 60 min
Sat - race or 3hr@80% effort (if crit, 2hrs ride after)
Sun - race or 4hr@race effort (ditto Saturday)
The week of a time trial, I motorpaced Tuesday and try to ride the
course or a reasonable facsimile on Wed. Thursday became 1.5x the TT
distance at 80%, and Friday a test ride on the TT setup and a lazy spin.

FITW,

Marsh



Jay Tegeder wrote:
Skiing is much easier! Actually, I think it depends on the pack you're
racing with in bike racing. The WISPORT citizen bike race series is a
lot easier than the USCF racing in Minnesota and likely everywhere.
First, there are a lot more bike racers than ski racers. So the
numbers get you pretty good on the bike. I've had some very tough ski
races over the years like the Noquemanon this season where I had way
too much kick wax and had a very slow race. If you've been skiing for
a long time, you get the benefits of better technique and gliding,
knowledge of when to go and when to take it easier, superior downhill
cornering and balance etc. I beat tons of guys skiing who likely have
better aerobic capacity than me. My technique and ski knowledge is
just better from years of doing the sport. In bike racing though,
weaknesses are more easily exposed. If you can hammer, you're going to
do well. You might have to learn the proper gear to be in when climing
a hill, but that is a short learning curve. Biking can be pretty safe
when you get dropped by the pack... I'd say mountain bike racing is
more like ski racing because of single track technique, pacing on the
climbs, skill at descending etc. Road bike racing is all about
strength. The way to get better is to go out and ride tons of miles. I
know this guy I bike with by chance once in a while. I hook up with
him when I'm on my after work ride and he's on his commute home. The
guy rides 25 miles to work in the morning and 25 miles home in the
afternoon. That's 50 miles every work day. How do you compete against
guys like that? Most of the fast bike racers around here go on 70-80
mile training rides a couple of times per week. I'll get in 60+ once
every other Saturday or Sunday around here in the summer. I do think
racing makes you better though. I basically did a 26 mile time trial
yesterday. That can't be too bad for training...

Jay Tegeder
"It's not how fast you go, it's how many fast people you know!" JT



"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. .

I wonder if those NG'ers who both ski race and bike race can comment on the
subjective "difficulty" or pain associated with each.
We have Jay T., primarily a skier heading into bike racing, and we have JFT,
a bike racer who has taken up skiing. Surely there are many others doing
both riding and skiing competitively.

Say there was a Wave One in bike racing equivalent to the Birkie Wave One .
Which one would be "easier" to make for those in both disciplines?

My sense as a rambling randonneur kind of rider and a middle of the pack
tourist skier is that skiing is "easier". That's because of the different
ways to propel forward. Tired legs? Double pole more. Tired upper body? Use
your legs more. Also the down hills on skis are relatively more relaxing for
me at a rate that is faster to the best skiers compared to the comparatively
slower descent on a bike. The thought of crashing on the road makes me more
conservative than I am on snow, But even there I tend not to let it hang out
much these days. When I bike raced it seemed that everybody went out hard
and just kept trying to go harder. It was brutal. Surely there's more a
weight penalty for riders in hilly courses, but my recollections are from
when I was 25% lighter than I am now.

One problem in comparing the two sports are the distances. Don't know how to
reconcile that. I wonder the HR ave. and HR profile of a 30 mile bike race
vs a similar length ski race.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

Which is easier. That's a good one.

Marsh says biking is easier. I know a top bike racer who also says biking is easier.

I used to do pretty good in Cat 2/3 events and in ski events and I'd say that bike racing is a much more intense pain with much
more of it. You can keep heaping it on and coming back for more. You can trash yourself in an event, recover for awhile then
trash yourself again and again as need be, all in one event. I did a 3-hr training race once where we did 6 15-minute mini-races
within the big ride. It was really hot and humid; we all went thru 3 water bottles and food. I remember thinking that was my
hardest single workout ever.

And, man, the events can be long---road races are often 4 hours long and they can contain several long max effort periods where
you think the race could be decided but then an hour later things have changed and it's like the race is starting over again at
full-effort. In skiing there's more a sense of settling in, then working on dialing things up here and there as need be. You give
it your all, but more smoothly for the most part. Maybe at the very top level in skiing you can have more intense tactical
episodes where the hammer falls in surprising places, again and again.

But most ski races aren't over 3 hrs long. Comparing apples to apples: an hour bike race to an hour ski race, I'd still say the
road bike racing offers a purer / morer level of pain capacity. Maybe it's coz you're just using your legs so the rest of your
body can be used for absorbing pain in various ways. : ) Legs for work, rest of body for pain reservoir. (I make myself laugh.)
Running races also seem to be more pain-oriented than ski races...again maybe because running uses only legs---pain fills the
rest of the body. But running usually isn't as long as bike racing and has fewer 120% effort episodes, fewer "now we make the
eyes pop out" spells. In ski racing, it seems more like your body gets totally used up---you go so hard with every part of your
body that you can hardly see straight, you drool, but there's less room for pure pain: the areas used for pain in cycling/running
have to work in skiing. I like skiing coz it seems more work-oriented than suffering-oriented.

When you're in prime form for any enduro sport there's that sense of putting the coals to the fire, heaping on the work, staying
relaxed, breathing right, just flying along. But cycling is more intense and skiing is more all-body. And in cycling you have to
stay somewhat more mentally aware where in skiing it's more part of the action to get flabbergasted (crosseyed).

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ...
plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com
... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW!

The sports, at least at my levels, are so differnt that I can't
compare them. Also, bike races vary tremendously depending on the
circumstances of the race -- so a race that is brutal one year might
be just hard the next if it develops differently. This makes
comparisons even harder.

JFT

I used to feel that XC helped me make a nice transition in Spring to
bike racing. I suppose bike riding all winter and windtraining would
make it even easier in some ways. Still, I used to do just fine in
Spring races and felt like I suffered less than others. There'd be cold,
windy rain races---like 40F---and I'd see guys starting with bare arms
and legs and know they could not finish and they didn't. The ski racing
helped me be ready for the cold and to appreciate that dressing exactly
right is vital.

I think I relied more on my ability to suffer than on my fitness in both
sports. Doing several sports made it so I wasn't fit enough for any of
them. So I end up focusing more on the quality of suffering than on the
skills when I compare sports. Again, the bike racing had an
extra-intense suffering that went way into the deficit regions
repeatedly in one event while skiing had more of the all-body depletion
and drooling thing.

As far as skills go, you have to stay on your toes, alert, ready and
relaxed in both sports. I'm not sure that singletrack mtb is more skills
oriented than, say, crit racing. I suppose crit racing is mostly
predictable but usually there is plenty of dynamic and surprising bike
handling involved---think of something like Snake Alley. Or probably
most Euro races. Maybe singletrack is more all-over-the-board, but bike
skills just get plenty amazing once you're into the Cat 2 range or if
you have the Euro experience of narrow, very dicey road courses (unlit
tunnels, how about).

I wonder how required skills vary between Euro xc ski racing and Euro
road bike racing. Euro bikers and skiers alike have greatly impressed me
with their handling skills. I've never done either a Euro ski race or
bike race, tho. Are Euro ski races pretty dicey with lots of close pack
action and jockeying? I'd bet that most bike races are, due to the
narrow crazy roads.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ...
plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com
... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW!

PS: What we really need to be is be crossposting this discussion to
RBR. : )

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publishing do-it-yourself culture ... bikes, skis, boats & more ...
plus radically relevant novels at the ULA's LiteraryRevolution.com
... free music ... tons o' articles ... travel forums ... WOW!

For bike racing, there is a tactical component where you often have to
go really, really hard for a reason and might be duffing off a bit
later on. At my (hack) level of skiing, it tends to play out more
like a running race, where you hustle some to stay in a group, but
don't have to do a huge effort at some point to make a break or
somesuch. I don't think that makes one easier than the other, just
different. I imagine the top level skiers race at a much different
tempo from someone like me, maybe more like a bike race. The weather
conditions for both can be pretty tough. Lastly, the "whole body"
aspect of skiing can make things tough, sometimes my poor technique
makes my face and neck sore, that can't be pretty to watch.

They are both quite hard, from my estimation. I think cyclocross can
be the toughest, maybe a hard pro-am criterium is also high on the
list.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote in message . ..
The sports, at least at my levels, are so differnt that I can't
compare them. Also, bike races vary tremendously depending on the
circumstances of the race -- so a race that is brutal one year might
be just hard the next if it develops differently. This makes
comparisons even harder.

JFT

I don't think we need that R.B.R. riff raff over here.

:^]

jw
milwaukee