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how to choose all-mountain skis?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 19th 04, 07:27 AM
Monique Y. Mudama
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Default how to choose all-mountain skis?

As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?

I'm currently on a pair of relatively generic "recreational" level skis.
Recent discussions have emphasized the importance of "good" skis ... so now I
need to figure out what that means.

On any given day, I will ski both bumps and groomers ranging from Colorado
blue to black. I've done a few double blacks last season and expect to see
more this year. I'd like a ski that will handle all conditions decently,
although, considering my location, ice is the least important. Oh, and if I
can use the same skis for recreational racing, that would be good, too.

Okay, now that I've established my unrealistic hopes/expectations =P

1) Any suggestions on the types of skis I should consider?

2) My ski instructor suggested skis with a fatter waist, somewhere around
75-80mm ... mine are very wasp-waisted. He said that a narrow waist will
allow you to swap edges faster, but that he can go from edge to edge as fast
as he needs. He also said they are more fun if you want to try freestyle-type
stuff ... opinions on this opinion?

3) I like my old K2 Powers, except they're really too long for me, especially
now that I don't have the thigh strength that came from diligent martial arts
practice. So I looked at the K2 T-Nine (women's) lineup, but the only
wide-waisted ski they had looked to have a pretty narrow shovel. The
unisex/men's Apache Recon looks more like what my instructor described,
though. Any women have opinions on women-specific skis and on the T-Nine
series in particular? I've always liked K2, although it probably has more to
do with Glenn Plake than anything. Actually, my first ski was a gyrator, and
those made me happy, too.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

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  #2  
Old December 20th 04, 04:22 PM
Mike Treseler
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


Demo a K2 Axis X.

-- Mike Treseler

  #3  
Old December 20th 04, 04:22 PM
Vincent Walker
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Demo skis, everything has a different personality. If you're going to ski
consistently in the Rockies then something in the 70-75 mm range is going to
be fine. In my neck of the woods (the East), a little narrower waist works
better. Surface area is the key. If you have a very wide shovel/tail you can
go shorter and maintain stability. I think the Head Ic160 (comes in uni and
female models) is a good choice to demo (I'm partial to Heads). I tried them
in fresh snow and they worked very well. The new Atomic Metrons seem to have
a unique solution to things but I haven't tried them. Salomon's are known
for being very smooth. Fischer skis are great but from my experience they
really like HARD conditions. You're just going to try them.

  #4  
Old December 20th 04, 04:57 PM
Monique Y. Mudama
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On 2004-12-20, Mike Treseler penned:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


Demo a K2 Axis X.


Do you mean Apache X?

http://www.k2skis.com/products/skis/ski.asp?ProductID=4

I was really looking more for general characteristics, though specific
products are good, too. What do you like about the X? Can you identify
certain characteristics?

--
monique
Longmont, CO

  #5  
Old December 20th 04, 05:03 PM
MattB
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


A very subjective thing, like selecting a "good" bike. I haven't bought
a new pair of Alpine skis in a few years, but in the past I've liked my
K2s and Salomons the best. I had some Dynastars back when the 4x4 was
the next big thing. I think I got about 30 days out of them and one of
them broke in half on a rock. Now, there was some serious pilot error
involved, but I think my Salomons may have survived the same hit.

As others have said, go forth and demo. Demo realizing that you may need
to play with your timing and weight distribution a bit with different
skis (just so you don't try and ski them exactly like your old ones
without taking the differences into account). My Salomon Super Mountains
have been my #1 favorite pair of skis so far, but that particular model
(if they still make them - I dunno) may be a little stiff for you. I
love the shape, with a little wider waist they give great flotation in
the powder, but can still carve and edge pretty well when it's firmer. I
agree a wider waist is good for Colorado - a narrower waist (with a
wider shovel and tail) will try and force you to commit to a carved turn
more. In bumps and steeps, this can get tricky, and a wider waist will
give you more turning options when you need them.

For all-mountain, I've found a mid-fat without too radical a sidecut
seems to be the most versatile.

Matt (now fully recovered from my belief that the Rossignol 4M would
never be topped)

  #6  
Old December 20th 04, 05:13 PM
Mary Malmros
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

On 2004-12-20, Mike Treseler penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


Demo a K2 Axis X.



Do you mean Apache X?

http://www.k2skis.com/products/skis/ski.asp?ProductID=4

I was really looking more for general characteristics, though specific
products are good, too.


Hrm, well, I guess this kind of points out that "all-mountain" isn't a
super-useful label, because it raises the questions, "What mountain are
you talking about?" -- which you already described -- and, "What kind of
skier are you?" My sense of it is that, in practice, "all-mountain"
tends to be the label that ski manufacturers are applying to their
higher-performance products that aren't more usage-specific (not
twin-tips, for example, or race skis or powder skis).

But I also get the feeling that the term has acquired a little marketing
cachet and has a sort of hard-charger, "I ski it all" aura to it.
Whenever that happens, with any kind of product, inevitably you get some
people who buy the gear because they think that by doing so, they'll
magically be transformed into someone who has that kind of ability (or,
in a milder form, they think that the gear will create a big
breakthrough for them without any real effort involved). And once that
starts to happen, you end up with product manufacturers attaching the
sexy tag -- "all-mountain", in this case -- to products that are a
little more toned down, so that people can buy a product with the
attractive label, and still end up with something that's a bit more
suited to their ability level, because customers who have just had their
asses kicked are not happy customers.

All that is by way of saying that I'd take the "all-mountain" label with
a big grain of salt. I can easily see it becoming the next euphemism
for, "really, really forgiving", and in some product lines, it's
possible that it may already be used in that way. What you might want
to do instead is describe your ideal ski in terms of performance:
demanding vs. forgiving, quickness/agility, speed, quietness, etc.
There are obvious tradeoffs, and some of those will point to details of
construction that can help get beyond the more subjective descriptions.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

  #7  
Old December 20th 04, 05:21 PM
lal_truckee
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
On 2004-12-20, Mike Treseler penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


Demo a K2 Axis X.



Do you mean Apache X?


Forget these kinds of skis, from all brands.


http://www.k2skis.com/products/skis/ski.asp?ProductID=4


Gawd, that's an evil website. May a thousand snow-fleas infest your
boots for even posting a link to the site.

I was really looking more for general characteristics, though specific
products are good, too. What do you like about the X? Can you identify
certain characteristics?


Re all mountain skis - I think the whole wiiiiiide ski thing is way
overdone.

Nothing has really changed on the mountain - the snow's the same, the
groomed's the same (if enlarged) the crud's the same, the slop's the
same, the steep's the same. What used to be said can still be said: (and
it answers you desire to race a bit as well) A solid GS race ski is the
closest thing to an all condition ski available.

A true GS only fails in genuine powder. Better to just get a soft powder
ski from the dumpster to fill out a quiver than to compromise all other
conditions with a wide "all mountain" ski. The only thing you get from
wide skis is easy powder skiing for those who don't want to invest the
effort in learning powder technique and instead just want to ride up and
out of the deep. (This assumes you can carve crud and slop on race skis
- it's not hard, it just takes patience.)

Plus a dumpster ski for powder works fine because you don't need edges,
you don't need torsion, hell, you don't even need a base, all you need
is a long enough soft flexing boards - classic broken-down dumpster ski.

Here's what you do - haunt swaps and backrooms near a mountain with a
big race program. Grab some 2 or 3 years old race GS skis in your
length. Serious racers switch skis every couple of years (they can
afford it because they get steep discounts) so excellent skis show up
cheap, with bindings. By careful selection you can get their designated
race skis instead of the identical training skis and essentially have a
brand new pair of skis. While there check the dumpster for your powder
rig, and you're set.

I'm serious - this is how real people can afford to ski the top skis.

  #8  
Old December 20th 04, 05:59 PM
MattB
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Default

lal_truckee wrote:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

On 2004-12-20, Mike Treseler penned:

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


Demo a K2 Axis X.



Do you mean Apache X?



Forget these kinds of skis, from all brands.


http://www.k2skis.com/products/skis/ski.asp?ProductID=4



Gawd, that's an evil website. May a thousand snow-fleas infest your
boots for even posting a link to the site.

I was really looking more for general characteristics, though specific
products are good, too. What do you like about the X? Can you identify
certain characteristics?



Re all mountain skis - I think the whole wiiiiiide ski thing is way
overdone.


Agreed, but with many things overdone, there's often a happy medium out
there that isn't being hyped as much. Don't disregard something purely
because of hype, just realize that hype is, well, hype. Bad marketing
doesn't make a bad product (and of course the converse is also true).

Nothing has really changed on the mountain - the snow's the same, the
groomed's the same (if enlarged) the crud's the same, the slop's the
same, the steep's the same. What used to be said can still be said: (and
it answers you desire to race a bit as well) A solid GS race ski is the
closest thing to an all condition ski available.


Not to say it's can't be done, but I'd say that a GS race ski wouldn't
be all that great in the bumps. Now I know some people like them in all
conditions, but I really prefer a slightly softer ski in the bumps. I
used to ski my Atomic Red Sleds all over the mountain, but once after a
day in the bumps one ski stayed in a permanent turn. My current favorite
Alpine board is like a GS race ski in some respects, but has a wider
waist which I like for making shorter radius turns in steeps and bumps.
They also lack the metal that many GS skis would have, which makes them
less likely to bend.
In the end it's primarily personal preference. You like a race GS ski
the best, I like a more recreational (used to be a bad word to me BTW)
high performance all mountain, tradeoffs and all.

I think tradeoffs are a good thing, because a typical ski day (or even
run) for me isn't just one kind of skiing. I like to carve it up on the
groomers, hit some bumps, and also find some powder stashes in the trees
(if it's not a day when the stashes are everywhere). I like a ski that
can do all relatively well and not make me want to go and swap skis for
different runs.

Matt

  #9  
Old December 20th 04, 06:59 PM
VtSkier
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MattB wrote:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

As the subject of "good skis" came up ...

What would you look for in a pair of all-mountain skis?


A very subjective thing, like selecting a "good" bike. I haven't bought
a new pair of Alpine skis in a few years, but in the past I've liked my
K2s and Salomons the best. I had some Dynastars back when the 4x4 was
the next big thing. I think I got about 30 days out of them and one of
them broke in half on a rock. Now, there was some serious pilot error
involved, but I think my Salomons may have survived the same hit.


Doubt it, foam core you know.

As others have said, go forth and demo. Demo realizing that you may need
to play with your timing and weight distribution a bit with different
skis (just so you don't try and ski them exactly like your old ones
without taking the differences into account). My Salomon Super Mountains
have been my #1 favorite pair of skis so far, but that particular model
(if they still make them - I dunno) may be a little stiff for you. I
love the shape, with a little wider waist they give great flotation in
the powder, but can still carve and edge pretty well when it's firmer. I
agree a wider waist is good for Colorado - a narrower waist (with a
wider shovel and tail) will try and force you to commit to a carved turn
more. In bumps and steeps, this can get tricky, and a wider waist will
give you more turning options when you need them.

For all-mountain, I've found a mid-fat without too radical a sidecut
seems to be the most versatile.

Matt (now fully recovered from my belief that the Rossignol 4M would
never be topped)

4M? The greatest was actually the 4S.

VtSkier

  #10  
Old December 20th 04, 07:02 PM
Monique Y. Mudama
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Default

On 2004-12-20, lal_truckee penned:

A true GS only fails in genuine powder. Better to just get a soft powder ski
from the dumpster to fill out a quiver than to compromise all other
conditions with a wide "all mountain" ski. The only thing you get from wide
skis is easy powder skiing for those who don't want to invest the effort in
learning powder technique and instead just want to ride up and out of the
deep. (This assumes you can carve crud and slop on race skis - it's not
hard, it just takes patience.)


Well, powder and crud/slop are my two biggest problem areas, so ... getting a
ski that's more work in those conditions might not be my best move. I see
that once again, I haven't been detailed enough in describing my question =)

--
monique
Longmont, CO

 




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