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boots dilema



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 14th 04, 05:17 AM
Monique Y. Herman
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On 2004-01-14, Richard Walsh penned:
[snip]

Took them home. A month and a half later was my first day on the hill.
I buckled them moderately, skied all day without changing anything and
took them off at night. It's been this way right along now.

This isn't by way of bragging, it's for encouragement. You will get
your boots right and the next time you buy boots it will be easier.
Work hard on getting them at least close so you won't mess up your
honeymoon trip with sore feet after the first day.


I hope you're right =)

Fortunately, my version of sore feet goes away an hour or so after I get
my feet out of the boots, so while it may be annoying, it shouldn't mess
up the non-skiing portion of the events.

BTW, my recommendation for buckling, assuming the boots fit snuggly.

Bottom two buckles just tight enough to not jar open. Third buckle up
tight enough that I can close it but not so tight as I need help
closing it. Same for the top buckle, but can be looser if the terrain
is easy. Fairly snug for the strap.


Sounds about right. I can close all of my buckles myself, with much
less effort than I used to expend. However, the bootfitters seem to
have achieved this by remounting the calf buckles, so maybe I'm cheating
=P

ALWAYS wear the same brand/size/weight of socks once you have found
the right ones.


Indeed. The lighter, the better.


--
monique

Ads
  #22  
Old January 14th 04, 05:32 AM
Monique Y. Herman
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On 2004-01-14, F. Plant penned:

Congrats on the 8 days and the intended honeymoon. Ive got 2 days and
a todler, used to get about a dozen.


Funny what kids will do to your schedule =)


Your boot is still probably only partially broken in, and your foot
will also be getting manipulated into a slightly different shape so it
takes a bit of time for it to get used to being constrained.


I'm trying to interpret this paragraph. How many days of skiing does it
take to break in a boot liner? Does it matter how far apart the days
are?

Also, my foot? Do you mean that, every season, my foot needs to reshape
itself to the boot?

RE the MTB, a friend had a similar issue which she cured by putting
some old ski orthodics in her cycling shoes. They were the rigid
plastic type w no arch posting.


I'm not sure exactly what posting is. I have custom orthotics in my ski
boots; I have certainly thought about putting them in my biking shoes,
but as I said, my bike foot issues are pretty minor compared to the ski
ones.

Boot dryers that are too warm can soften the liner materials and let
them somewhat bounce back to their original uncompacted form.
Moisture only gives you musties AFAIK.


Mine adds no heat to the air; it only circulates the existing air.

I can relate to your toe issue as I get foot cramps on a reg basis -I
can do great involuntary Vulcan greetings with my toes :-) Don't rule
out cold 'cause if the circulation to that toe is bad it could be
freezing before its friends do. Dosn't mean that its not the boots
fault, just that it could be a blood vessel issue and not a pinched
nerve issue. If its white and its neighbours are pink (assuming your
are of pasty european descent -which is a great bootfitting aid) you
have minimally some sort of circulation issues.


Well, at this point, my feet generally feel pretty warm, both to
themselves and to the touch. So I have trouble believing that it's a
cold issue. It also happens even on warm ski days.

If I remember correctly, there's no visible difference between the toes
after the boot torture.

I have cramping issues that are boot volume related. For me I find
chair lifts sometimes hell as that is when I get cramps. For myself
at least, its the lack of weighting on my foot, which causes the
problem. My theory is when weighted its in a stable spread position,
easily overcoming boot forces. When unweighted the now relatively
large boot forces distort it resulting in potential for cramps. I
find this is worsened by cold, lactic acid, and dehydration.


The lack of a foot bar definitely accelerates the pain process for me.
I don't know know if the specifics are similar. I do try to drink
enough water.

I do have a low volume fit, and I am very close to the sides and top
of the shell. All that said I've been looking for replacements for
about 2-3 seasons and nothing comes close to their fit even though
they must be close to 300 days.


It seems so hard to tell whether a boot that you're trying on in the
store will fit you well after a week of skiing. Or which boots will be
modifiable to fit properly. And of course, once they start molding
plastic, it's kind of hard to change your mind. Definitely daunting.

BTW if you go to a podiatrist, try to get someone who specializes in
skiing.


That was my plan. I'll see what I can dig up. I would think it would
be pretty easy to find such an office in Boulder, of all places.

--
monique

  #23  
Old January 14th 04, 04:30 PM
F. Plant
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Response in text

"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
On 2004-01-14, F. Plant penned:

snip
Your boot is still probably only partially broken in, and your foot
will also be getting manipulated into a slightly different shape so it
takes a bit of time for it to get used to being constrained.


I'm trying to interpret this paragraph. How many days of skiing does it
take to break in a boot liner? Does it matter how far apart the days
are?


Personally with the older non heat fit boots, I would say 15 to 30 days. If
its done over a few years you are always back tracking a bit as materials do
have a memory and they want to go back some what. Your feet also change
over the years. A lot of 2 day a year skiers replace boots before they are
broken in. Even with new boots it takes a while. I was looking at a
performance salomon boot and the rep said to ski it a week before heat
forming it.


Also, my foot? Do you mean that, every season, my foot needs to reshape
itself to the boot?


A little. During the summer our footwear tends to be loose and our feet
spread. Your feet are also bigger at the end of the day than in the
morning, or when we are very hot. In your ski boots your feet tend to be
constrained, and realistically for a responsive fit it does exert some
preasure on the foot, just as your foot exerts preasure on the boot, and
that preasure manipulates the foot. Sort of a ying yang thing. Sometimes
everything readjusts into a happy position, sometimes not. At the end of
the season you will probably be close to 50 days at the rate you are going,
and you will probably notice a sculpted shape to your shin and calf, and a
packing together of the toes where they nestle like hotdogs in a blister
pack.

RE the MTB, a friend had a similar issue which she cured by putting
some old ski orthodics in her cycling shoes. They were the rigid
plastic type w no arch posting.


I'm not sure exactly what posting is. I have custom orthotics in my ski


Posting is solid blocking under the arch. Cork beds are made that way,
plastic beds optionally have it added after the fact.


boots; I have certainly thought about putting them in my biking shoes,
but as I said, my bike foot issues are pretty minor compared to the ski
ones.

Boot dryers that are too warm can soften the liner materials and let
them somewhat bounce back to their original uncompacted form.
Moisture only gives you musties AFAIK.


Mine adds no heat to the air; it only circulates the existing air.


Perfect. You may just want to check that they are also getting rid of
moisture between the liner and shell. On some boots the only recourse is to
pull the liners each day.



I can relate to your toe issue as I get foot cramps on a reg basis -I
can do great involuntary Vulcan greetings with my toes :-) Don't rule
out cold 'cause if the circulation to that toe is bad it could be
freezing before its friends do. Dosn't mean that its not the boots
fault, just that it could be a blood vessel issue and not a pinched
nerve issue. If its white and its neighbours are pink (assuming your
are of pasty european descent -which is a great bootfitting aid) you
have minimally some sort of circulation issues.


Well, at this point, my feet generally feel pretty warm, both to
themselves and to the touch. So I have trouble believing that it's a
cold issue. It also happens even on warm ski days.

If I remember correctly, there's no visible difference between the toes
after the boot torture.

I have cramping issues that are boot volume related. For me I find
chair lifts sometimes hell as that is when I get cramps. For myself
at least, its the lack of weighting on my foot, which causes the
problem. My theory is when weighted its in a stable spread position,
easily overcoming boot forces. When unweighted the now relatively
large boot forces distort it resulting in potential for cramps. I
find this is worsened by cold, lactic acid, and dehydration.


The lack of a foot bar definitely accelerates the pain process for me.
I don't know know if the specifics are similar. I do try to drink
enough water.

I do have a low volume fit, and I am very close to the sides and top
of the shell. All that said I've been looking for replacements for
about 2-3 seasons and nothing comes close to their fit even though
they must be close to 300 days.


It seems so hard to tell whether a boot that you're trying on in the
store will fit you well after a week of skiing. Or which boots will be
modifiable to fit properly. And of course, once they start molding
plastic, it's kind of hard to change your mind. Definitely daunting.


Shell fit without the liner is very important. A shop should do this for
length, but few do it for volume. With the liner out put your foot inside
but instead of touching the end try to put it where it would be if the liner
was there. Check the width by rocking your foot. How close are you to the
shell? If you are extreamly close or touching on both sides without the
liner, chances are it needs to be wider. Also how does it feel at the sides
where the shell makes transition to the sides. Sometimes they roll up to
much, effectively making your foot colapse inward. Now try it again but
with your footbeds and do the same drill. Also how do the edges of the
footbed relate to your foot. If they are trimed to the width of the
original, you can find yourself hanging off the outside edges especially if
they do a big shell blowout. Check the height over the toes and instep
while you are at it.

BTW if you go to a podiatrist, try to get someone who specializes in
skiing.


That was my plan. I'll see what I can dig up. I would think it would
be pretty easy to find such an office in Boulder, of all places.

--
monique


Hope this helps to clarify,

F.Plant


  #24  
Old January 14th 04, 07:26 PM
F. Plant
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Posts: n/a
Default


"F. Plant" wrote in message
...
Response in text

"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
On 2004-01-14, F. Plant penned:

snip
Your boot is still probably only partially broken in, and your foot
will also be getting manipulated into a slightly different shape so it
takes a bit of time for it to get used to being constrained.


I'm trying to interpret this paragraph. How many days of skiing does it
take to break in a boot liner? Does it matter how far apart the days
are?


Personally with the older non heat fit boots, I would say 15 to 30 days.

If
its done over a few years you are always back tracking a bit as materials

do
have a memory and they want to go back some what. Your feet also change
over the years. A lot of 2 day a year skiers replace boots before they

are
broken in. Even with new boots it takes a while. I was looking at a
performance salomon boot and the rep said to ski it a week before heat
forming it.

snip

Just to clarify, just because the boot is being broken in dosn't mean you
hold off if things are hurting or causing major irritation, as that can do
major damage to your feet. Get the major adjustments done, but for minor
tweaking give them time to pack down on their own before taking more drastic
measures. Some shops will do major overkill in "solving" the small fit
problem, giving you a sloppier fit than what you really need.

F. Plant


  #25  
Old January 14th 04, 07:27 PM
Monique Y. Herman
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Posts: n/a
Default

On 2004-01-14, F. Plant penned:
[various sections snipped]
"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...

I'm trying to interpret this paragraph. How many days of skiing does
it take to break in a boot liner? Does it matter how far apart the
days are?


Personally with the older non heat fit boots, I would say 15 to 30
days. If its done over a few years you are always back tracking a bit
as materials do have a memory and they want to go back some what.
Your feet also change over the years. A lot of 2 day a year skiers
replace boots before they are broken in. Even with new boots it takes
a while. I was looking at a performance salomon boot and the rep said
to ski it a week before heat forming it.


Wow, 15 to 30 days. So yeah, I'm probably still breaking them in.

Also, my foot? Do you mean that, every season, my foot needs to
reshape itself to the boot?


A little. During the summer our footwear tends to be loose and our
feet spread. Your feet are also bigger at the end of the day than in
the morning, or when we are very hot. In your ski boots your feet
tend to be constrained, and realistically for a responsive fit it does
exert some preasure on the foot, just as your foot exerts preasure on
the boot, and that preasure manipulates the foot. Sort of a ying yang
thing. Sometimes everything readjusts into a happy position, sometimes
not. At the end of the season you will probably be close to 50 days
at the rate you are going, and you will probably notice a sculpted
shape to your shin and calf, and a packing together of the toes where
they nestle like hotdogs in a blister pack.


I would be very surprised (but psyched!) if we managed 50 days. Twenty
would thrill me. But we'll see =)

Kind of depressing to think that I'll have to get my feet "back into
shape" every season. Ah well.

Shell fit without the liner is very important. A shop should do this
for length, but few do it for volume. With the liner out put your
foot inside but instead of touching the end try to put it where it
would be if the liner was there. Check the width by rocking your
foot. How close are you to the shell? If you are extreamly close or
touching on both sides without the liner, chances are it needs to be
wider. Also how does it feel at the sides where the shell makes
transition to the sides. Sometimes they roll up to much, effectively
making your foot colapse inward. Now try it again but with your
footbeds and do the same drill. Also how do the edges of the footbed
relate to your foot. If they are trimed to the width of the original,
you can find yourself hanging off the outside edges especially if they
do a big shell blowout. Check the height over the toes and instep
while you are at it.


I need to save this bit of wisdom. To the best of my (faulty) memory,
I've generally been checked for heel and toe fit in the shell, but not
other contact points.

Hope this helps to clarify,


It does! Thank you!

--
monique

  #26  
Old January 15th 04, 02:06 AM
pigo
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Default


"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...

(snip)
* "painfully numb" means that the toe aches, but the toe itself can't
feel its surroundings; the big and middle toe feel its cold skin, but it
doesn't reciprocate. When I remove the boot, I get a prolonged ache
that makes me want to scream, presumably due to blood flowing back into
the region. So *something* is causing this pressure. I've taken to
leaving the lowest buckle undone (doesn't seem to change my degree of
control) and have the second buckle on its loosest setting. The upper
two buckles are as loose as I can set them while still feeling like I'm
in the driver's seat. This isn't due to cold; it's been pretty warm on
our ski days. It's also not isolated to skiing; I've noticed a similar
numbing effect while mountain biking. So I'm guessing the problem is
actually the constant pressure from the soles. Except that riding lifts
with no foot-bars seems to hasten the process, so that would implicate
pressure from the top. *sigh*


Is your boot folding your foot? You might need to lower your foot to a wider
part of the boot by grinding the footbed. Or expand the shell right there.
But I learned that from SureFoot (RightFit actually) so they'll be on that
for you.

My old boots didn't have the Ooomph for the more aggressive me. They're fine
now. Very comfy.

Anybody in need of a pair of 9/12 Rossi Course - CHEAP!

pigo



  #27  
Old January 15th 04, 06:12 PM
Monique Y. Herman
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Default

On 2004-01-15, pigo penned:

Is your boot folding your foot? You might need to lower your foot to a
wider part of the boot by grinding the footbed. Or expand the shell
right there. But I learned that from SureFoot (RightFit actually) so
they'll be on that for you.


I'm not sure how a foot could possibly be folded ... but that doesn't
sound like what's happening to me, or I'm sure I would immediately
recognize what you're describing.

--
monique

  #28  
Old January 15th 04, 09:25 PM
The Real Bev
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"Monique Y. Herman" wrote:

On 2004-01-15, pigo penned:

Is your boot folding your foot? You might need to lower your foot to a
wider part of the boot by grinding the footbed. Or expand the shell
right there. But I learned that from SureFoot (RightFit actually) so
they'll be on that for you.


I keep wearing my rear-entry boots because their previous owner's feet
seemed to match my own perfectly -- (s)he had them blown out exactly
where I would have had it done.

I'm not sure how a foot could possibly be folded ...


That sounds like what most shoes do to my feet -- the slightest
tightness across the widest part of my foot causes extreme pain which
lasts for at least 15 minutes after taking off my shoes and walking
around barefoot. A certain kind of insole has a big lump in the middle
of the ball of the foot, causing the bones to spread out rather than
bunching up. I wore some for a few hours as a favor to the seller, but
if she'd wanted to give them to me I wouldn't have taken them, and I
certainly wouldn't have paid money for them.

--
Cheers,
Bev
...so few snipers, so many politicians...

  #29  
Old January 16th 04, 01:34 AM
F. Plant
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"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...


snip
Wow, 15 to 30 days. So yeah, I'm probably still breaking them in.

Its not as long as it sounds, as the discomfort factor should be a
logarithmic thing with it tapering off. But it does take a while to get a
ballet slipper fit especially if you first need a few trips to the shop to
get you into the homestretch.
snip

Kind of depressing to think that I'll have to get my feet "back into
shape" every season. Ah well.


Good reason to not gain a lot of weight in the off season Again its not
as bad as it sounds, but expect the first couple of days a year to
potentially retrigger problems you thought had been worked out as foot and
boot become integrated again (esp if you have problematic feet). Just know
if it happens next year, there is probably no reason to get depressed as it
should sort itself out in short order. Just ski and have fun.
snip

F.Plant


  #30  
Old January 17th 04, 02:11 PM
Varanasi Benares
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The boot process is:
first find the brand line that fits your foot best;
second find the model in that line that fits your skill level;
third tweek the final selection to perfection.

All the above is much easier with the aid of a good bootfitter (I'm
tempted to say impossible for the newbie, without the aid of a good
bootfitter.)


I know that this is the standard advice, and I don't intend to disagree
with it. (I have a quibble below.) My problem is that it never works
for me because the fit of new boots and the fit of boots used 10 and 20
times is so different.

I simply don't buy enough boots (and will never buy enough boots) to
know just how tight boots should feel in the store. Bootfitters, even
experienced ones, aren't very helpful on this point. They naturally
need to ask things like: "Does it feel tight enough?" or "Is it snug
around the ankle?" I have to answer - assuming the boot is in the ball
park, "I guess so." I can also say things like "It's tighter than the
last one" but I can't really tell if the boot is tight enough that once
it packs out, it will fit.

My actual procedure, for the last two pairs of boots, has been 1) follow
the advice above; 2) ski in the boots; 3) every ten ski days take them
back to the store and get the fit redone; 4) after twenty days, start
rearranging the pads myself. I can't figure out how to do it differently.

Here's my quibble with lal's advice: nearly everyone who sells boots
thinks they are good bootfitters. Most shop employees in most shops are
new. They have taken a training program - maybe - and done fittings for
a couple months. Those who have been around for awhile seem either
jaded or they own the place. They can usually ski in anything and have
used dozens of boots. Naturally, they are a bit impatient with people
like me who can't tell if the boots are too tight and are very concerned
about getting things just right before shelling out a bundle of money.
They also know that the truth is that the boots will fit very
differently in a month. (I suppose this also varies by manufacturer and
year.

I should add that I have "good feet." They are perhaps a bit unusual in
shape, but I never find myself in pain because of footwear or ski boots.




 




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