Stay away from 50k and XC is lots easier

I figure that trying to do well at 50k events just about doubles the
hours and effort and organization and risk of sickness/injury and
wrinkles and haggardness and fatigue involved in XC racing. So why
bother? The thrill of the big league has to be really important to
someone to want to put up with that level of hassle. It seems like one
can do pretty darn good, and have tons of fun, and ski and train as much
as you like, however you like, with more variety, if one sticks to the
10-30k race length range.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

Jeff - you're absolutely right. Which is why we do it. With the short
races you don't get the animal bragging rights.

Tim
(Ain't it great to be able to refer to a 30k race as a "...short race"?!?
yeeeHawww!)


From: Jeff Potter
Organization: Out Your Backdoor: publishing modern folkways
Reply-To: AMcom
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:19:12 -0400
Subject: Stay away from 50k and XC is lots easier

I figure that trying to do well at 50k events just about doubles the
hours and effort and organization and risk of sickness/injury and
wrinkles and haggardness and fatigue involved in XC racing. So why
bother? The thrill of the big league has to be really important to
someone to want to put up with that level of hassle. It seems like one
can do pretty darn good, and have tons of fun, and ski and train as much
as you like, however you like, with more variety, if one sticks to the
10-30k race length range.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Tim Dudley wrote:

Jeff - you're absolutely right. Which is why we do it. With the short
races you don't get the animal bragging rights.
. .
From: Jeff Potter

can do pretty darn good, and have tons of fun, and ski and train as much
as you like, however you like, with more variety, if one sticks to the
10-30k race length range.

I agree with Jeff - at least for me. I used to do the 50-60K races, but
very slowly. After working (for years) to learn how to ski faster, I
found that I can't ski fast for more than 1.5-2 hours, given the hours of
training that I do (and my physiology). When I've occasionally tried the
"longer" races (like the first US Vasaloppet 42K classic), I bonked
something terrible in the last part. I really enjoy doing the 10-30K
races - I let my betters contest the longer ones, and do just fine in the
shorter ones. An added benefit, like at the Birke, among others, is that I
get to watch the big guys come in after I've rested and changed clothes.

-Ken

************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

I'm not a racer. I ski because I love everything about skiing, and it makes
me healthy and keeps me healthy. I ski only one race a year, and that
doesn't happen every year. I have skied 50K races only 3 times - the first
time only because I didn't have a clue how long 50km was! - and I never win
my age group, but I also never finish last in my age group.

I think that knowing that you can ski 50km in a reasonable time (4 to 5 hrs)
is one of those very excellent things in life. (Actually, being able to
finish a 50k race without hurting yourself is one of those amazing things.)
When you watch the Olympic (or any other) coverage of the 50k, you
understand intimately what's involved and what's going on, and you can say
to yourself, "I've done that".

We lose our perspective when we get into this. If you consider yourself
with the great unwashed, you realize how special it is to be able to ski
50km. You are doing 8km more than a marathon, in the middle of winter, with
sometimes pretty serious elevation changes, on skis, probably carrying
something, and doing it in about the same time as the marathoners. That's
pretty special. We often don't realize it here, because this newsgroup is
full of excellent skiers who just sort of take that distance for granted.

Bjørn Daelie talks about this in "The Hunt for Gold" in a section titled (in
Tjørborn's book) "The Joy of Being In Shape":

"...Most everyone understands ithat it is fun to stand on top of the victory
podium. But it is also a fantastic feeling to feel that you are in good
shape. I was reflecting on that when last July I rode my bike more than 300
kilometers to a cabin we had rented in Sweden...it was while I pushed hard
throught he rolling hills on the way to the border that I realized how great
this is. To be so strong and have the endurance to jump on a bike and pedal
300 kilometers at a decent pace..."

Now, there's good shape, and then there's Daelie good shape (his "decent
pace" was 300km in four hrs and ten minutes!) However, he's described how I
feel: I know that I can, and have, skied 50km at a decent pace. And can
do it again, with some work.


Tim



From: (Kenneth Salzberg)
Organization: Hamline University
Reply-To:
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: 15 Sep 2003 12:06:49 -0700
Subject: Stay away from 50k and XC is lots easier

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003, Tim Dudley wrote:

Jeff - you're absolutely right. Which is why we do it. With the short
races you don't get the animal bragging rights.
. .
From: Jeff Potter

can do pretty darn good, and have tons of fun, and ski and train as much
as you like, however you like, with more variety, if one sticks to the
10-30k race length range.

I agree with Jeff - at least for me. I used to do the 50-60K races, but
very slowly. After working (for years) to learn how to ski faster, I
found that I can't ski fast for more than 1.5-2 hours, given the hours of
training that I do (and my physiology). When I've occasionally tried the
"longer" races (like the first US Vasaloppet 42K classic), I bonked
something terrible in the last part. I really enjoy doing the 10-30K
races - I let my betters contest the longer ones, and do just fine in the
shorter ones. An added benefit, like at the Birke, among others, is that I
get to watch the big guys come in after I've rested and changed clothes.

-Ken

************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

Something's wrong here. That works out to about 45 mph AVS.
Fitzgerald?

You're justifiably suspicious. I mis-read the passage. What he says is
that he biked 300km from his place to a cabin he had rented in Sweden, and
his split to the Swedish border was 4hr and 10 minutes. So we don't know
how far he biked in 4hr 10.

I still think he makes a good point, even if he doesn't bike as fast as I
had indicated. (It did seem like a "...decent pace.")


Tim


From: "Fitzgerald"
Organization: Comcast Online
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:48:38 GMT
Subject: Stay away from 50k and XC is lots easier

Something's wrong here. That works out to about 45 mph AVS.
Fitzgerald?

If you take it from my perspective- a non competator, or one who competes to
triumph over self, anything less than 50 km is not so important in terms as
an "event".

After falling away from competition, and then re-entering the competetion
world I realized it made no sense for me to drive 200 miles to ski 50
minutes and come in in the lower top third. Why bother? I could stay home
and ski all day and not have to drive or get weirded out by skiing when
muddling through an already stressful day to day life.

So then the goal became fitness, fun, and the challange of distance, and
taking in new experiences. Citizen marathon skiing was the means to achieve
those goals for me. Completion with dignity!

XC ski racing is an ultimate competion IMO. Only boxing comes close as far
as I'm concerned. (And that's a brutal sport that leaves you poor and dumb.)

I think it would be more uncomfortable for me to ski a 15 to 30 km all out
effort than a 50 to 75 km Marathon at a bit under LT.

I suspect though, at the WC level, the per Km. rate for a 50 km. doesn't
fall that far off the 15 km. pace, and I'd think that blood labs would
indicate that 2 hours of full out racing is about the max before rate and
stride length takes a plunge downward. Tough to knowbecause 50 km is the
maximum length ofrace against the clock distances isn't it? Anthing longer
is head to head competition with strategy, and likely some slower speeds
involved due to strategy.

Didn't Daehlie get into some kind of toxic blood problem at Nagano Olympics
due to his 50 KM effort?

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Dudley"
To: "Multiple recipients of list
NORDIC-SKI"

Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:49 PM
Subject: Stay away from 50k and XC
is lots easier


If you consider yourself
with the great unwashed, you realize
how special it is to be able to ski
50km. You are doing 8km more than a
marathon, in the middle of winter, with
sometimes pretty serious elevation
changes, on skis, probably carrying
something, and doing it in about the
same time as the marathoners. That's
pretty special. We often don't
realize it here, because this newsgroup
is
full of excellent skiers who just sort
of take that distance for granted.


Good point. I had a similar thought
this summer whilst trail running with
the KongsBerger training group. Here
was a bunch of 40 and 50 year men and
women that can run in the woods for 3
hours straight and tell jokes during the
run. How fine it is to be a part of
that!

Erik Brooks, Seattle

Doing 50k's as a daylong event of distinction does seem very cool. And
surely not as hard on a body as training and racing one for top results.
It's a wonderful distance and if skied moderately is reasonable to do:
still one should prep for it with several 4-hour other outings. I just
don't have that kind of time. If I made that kind of time---always nice
to spend so many hours outside, it would be a family/work/life/errands
stress. And even just cruising a 50k actually does tap you out pretty
good.

I see Peter's point about shorter races being hard on the body due to
the intensity.

When I was racing 50's I do recall backing off somewhat, not digging as
deep, to go the distance. Yet we would usually fly thru the finishes of
the shorter events before their winners would come along. And I recall
my splits basically being the same as my times for those shorter events.
There is a sense that when really racing 50k's that you're going just as
hard as a 10k only for 5 times as long. It's kinda like there's just one
speed: all out. But it does seem to have slightly different expressions.
---It just takes tons more time to train to that 50k level and it wears
you down more to accomplish it. Both of which I remember and which I
won't get sucked into again even though I'm nowhere near that anymore. I
just find that getting ready for and achieving midpack results in
shorter events is a fun, fit, lark in comparison---pleasant on all the
systems. I do like the daylong touring, though! This sport sure does
have a lot to offer, eh?

As for being fit, when you're ready for 50k it really does seem like the
world is your oyster. Biking, canoeing, all come easy. Other distance
ski races are no problem (I never found that I lost my speediness for
10ks).

Yet! You do get sick and injured lots more often when at your gungho
marathon level. And I found that I did have some limits on my all-round
fitness: it's not such great training for pushing a car out of the
snowbank or for wrestling/selfdefense. --The puller muskles are strong
but the pushers aren't so hot. You get a bit lopsided. But really for
lifeskills it's pretty good: the raking, shoveling, hoeing, sawing
muskles are fine.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

If you want to do well, training for 50 k's takes marginally more time
than training for 10 k's. Either way, you need base/endurance, speed,
tempo, easy days, strength, etc. The only big difference is that the
long days (maybe one a week) need to be longer.

For the weekend warrier who has limited amount of time to train, I
would agree that it is easier to get to a point of being able to
"race" a 10k than a 50k. The key to racing long is being able to get
one long workout in about once a week - 2-3 hours on the skis should
suffice to get you to a point of being able to ski a 50k race. But,
heck, going for a 2-3 hour ski is an awefully nice way to spend a
weekend morning!

10k's and 50k's are definitely not done at the same intensity. 10k
races are much more intense, from the get-go. The fun part of the 50k
is that there is a fair amount of time spent in relative comfort,
cruising along (fast, yes, pushing, yes, but still not all-out).
There is much more time to enjoy the race as it develops. If you
think 50k races are brutal, chances are you are starting too fast and
blowing up. Applying 10k race pace to 50k race distance is a sure way
to do that!

As for race pace, I've often thought that 50 k races are done at
surprisingly close pace to 10k's. In running, I do about 5:30's for
10k, 6:00 for marathon = about 9% slow-down. I doubt the slow-down is
near as much for skiing (maybe 1 minute per 10k = 3%).

Bottom line, I really enjoy 50k races and think it's a fabulous
distance. So, I am not going to "stay away from 50k" ... I guess I'm
not interested in making XC "lots easier".

Cheers,
Brian

In article , Jeff Potter wrote:
Doing 50k's as a daylong event of distinction does seem very cool. And
surely not as hard on a body as training and racing one for top results.
It's a wonderful distance and if skied moderately is reasonable to do:
still one should prep for it with several 4-hour other outings. I just
don't have that kind of time. If I made that kind of time---always nice
to spend so many hours outside, it would be a family/work/life/errands
stress. And even just cruising a 50k actually does tap you out pretty
good.

I see Peter's point about shorter races being hard on the body due to
the intensity.

When I was racing 50's I do recall backing off somewhat, not digging as
deep, to go the distance. Yet we would usually fly thru the finishes of
the shorter events before their winners would come along. And I recall
my splits basically being the same as my times for those shorter events.
There is a sense that when really racing 50k's that you're going just as
hard as a 10k only for 5 times as long. It's kinda like there's just one
speed: all out. But it does seem to have slightly different expressions.
---It just takes tons more time to train to that 50k level and it wears
you down more to accomplish it. Both of which I remember and which I
won't get sucked into again even though I'm nowhere near that anymore. I
just find that getting ready for and achieving midpack results in
shorter events is a fun, fit, lark in comparison---pleasant on all the
systems. I do like the daylong touring, though! This sport sure does
have a lot to offer, eh?

As for being fit, when you're ready for 50k it really does seem like the
world is your oyster. Biking, canoeing, all come easy. Other distance
ski races are no problem (I never found that I lost my speediness for
10ks).

Yet! You do get sick and injured lots more often when at your gungho
marathon level. And I found that I did have some limits on my all-round
fitness: it's not such great training for pushing a car out of the
snowbank or for wrestling/selfdefense. --The puller muskles are strong
but the pushers aren't so hot. You get a bit lopsided. But really for
lifeskills it's pretty good: the raking, shoveling, hoeing, sawing
muskles are fine.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
publisher of outdoor/indoor do-it-yourself culture...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...rare books on ski, bike, boat culture, plus a Gulf Coast thriller
about smalltown smuggling ... more radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!