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Is my heel dragging the snow?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 26th 06, 08:41 PM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
lonerider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?

David Taylor wrote:
On 2006-12-26, wrote:
Bob F wrote:

This technique works well, especially at low speed. Sure, at high speeds
anyone can change edges evenly to make quick non-skidded turns
without pushing the tail of the board around. Using board torsion allows
smooth turns without skidding even at near zero speeds. Focusing on
it when riding switch makes switch riding much more comfortable. You
just don't catch edges and fall as much.

I will say again - I teach this technique to all my beginning students. It
works very well for them. When it doesn't seem to work for them, they
usually have their bindings too close together on the board. Move the
bindings, and all of a sudden it works. The students that learn this way
to turn are visably smoother riders. They also seem to suffer many fewer
traumatic falls during the learning process.

If you like the way you ride - fine. If you want to try something a lot
of riders have never discovered that might improve your performance,
you might want to try this. I have no vested interest other than liking
to help people ride better. And I am always interested in any new
concepts that I can learn, which is one of the reasons I visit R.S.S.
Keep them coming.


I'd be interested in hearing from others on here if:

1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the
board by moving the feet in opposite direction


Yes.

2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding.


Yes

My answer is no to both.


I'd be interested to know if you actually understand the technique being
discussed. It's not so much moving the feet in opposite directions.
You start with pressure on the heel edge on both feet. Then release
the pressure on the heel edge on your front foot, and apply pressure
to the toe edge on your front foot. As the board begins to turn, do
the same with your back foot. All you're doing is turning with the front
of the board first.


1. I have heard of this suggestion, but I wasn't told it while learning
to ride. One very good instructor (AASII III, PSIA III, CASI Race II)
told me at a race camp I attended that it is a useful technique if you
board is not very torsionally rigid, but not the most effective for the
stiff decks that Neil G, Mike T, I and many others ride and hence is
probably why we don't use it very much. It is ONE of many technique he
uses to teach - for those of with a preference for carving, we work
more on edge pressure.

=== Quoted from someone ====================
OK, I'll give it a shot: There are 4 things you can do to a snowboard:
Pivot it, pressure it, edge it and, yes, twist it. Since many of the
alpine focused decks are pretty stiff torsionally, the twisting concept
is pretty minimal. However, if you ride fairly flat angles and a
relatively soft board like a 4X4/AWD/Axis, then you can actually twist
the board to initiate a turn. Think about pressing down with your front
set of toes first to start a toeside turn, then following up with by
pressing the back toes down to finish and you have the concept. This is
best accomplished on a long mellow run as you will have to wait a while
(read- time it with a calendar) to allow your average alpine board to
gradually edge into a turn.

This is a much more applicable discussion in the freestyle, boards that
are as flexible as a french fry. Nevertheless, it is a valid topic. I
say this because I teach the "twisty" method of turn initiation to the
french fry crowd. BTW, I do it on my Axis.
=========================================

2. Not really. At least I don't visualize that way. I visualize it more
like David does - although I actually pressure the front edge of the
board first (not both feet). Anyways, so David know the technique you
describe it actually different from Bob F's description. He really
means twist. Bob's mentioned that he hasn't had much instructor
training outside of the PSIA and each instructor group has it's own
"school of teaching" in which they believe to be superior to all other
"schools of thought." I'm sure Bob would have a fit with the SBSS
school of teaching that advocates a rotational style
(
http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html). I'm not even sure if I
would teach that to my students either.

For a note to the some of members of the forum. We value your input
greatly, but you don't need to continually try to convince us of your
street cred and consequently your worth as a contributor. You don't
need to tell me how many boards you've sold to happy customers, or how
many of your students have suddenly "got it" with your help. To me
that's reminds me of one of the Real Men of Genius commercials by Bud
Light. Listen here (http://tinyurl.com/j5axj). Let your thoughts stand
on their own merits.

Ads
  #22  
Old December 26th 06, 09:13 PM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Bob F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,296
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?


"lonerider" wrote in message
ups.com...
David Taylor wrote:
On 2006-12-26, wrote:
Bob F wrote:

This technique works well, especially at low speed. Sure, at high

speeds
anyone can change edges evenly to make quick non-skidded turns
without pushing the tail of the board around. Using board torsion

allows
smooth turns without skidding even at near zero speeds. Focusing on
it when riding switch makes switch riding much more comfortable. You
just don't catch edges and fall as much.

I will say again - I teach this technique to all my beginning

students. It
works very well for them. When it doesn't seem to work for them, they
usually have their bindings too close together on the board. Move the
bindings, and all of a sudden it works. The students that learn this

way
to turn are visably smoother riders. They also seem to suffer many

fewer
traumatic falls during the learning process.

If you like the way you ride - fine. If you want to try something a

lot
of riders have never discovered that might improve your performance,
you might want to try this. I have no vested interest other than

liking
to help people ride better. And I am always interested in any new
concepts that I can learn, which is one of the reasons I visit R.S.S.
Keep them coming.

I'd be interested in hearing from others on here if:

1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting

the
board by moving the feet in opposite direction


Yes.

2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding.


Yes

My answer is no to both.


I'd be interested to know if you actually understand the technique being
discussed. It's not so much moving the feet in opposite directions.
You start with pressure on the heel edge on both feet. Then release
the pressure on the heel edge on your front foot, and apply pressure
to the toe edge on your front foot. As the board begins to turn, do
the same with your back foot. All you're doing is turning with the

front
of the board first.


1. I have heard of this suggestion, but I wasn't told it while learning
to ride. One very good instructor (AASII III, PSIA III, CASI Race II)
told me at a race camp I attended that it is a useful technique if you
board is not very torsionally rigid, but not the most effective for the
stiff decks that Neil G, Mike T, I and many others ride and hence is
probably why we don't use it very much. It is ONE of many technique he
uses to teach - for those of with a preference for carving, we work
more on edge pressure.

=== Quoted from someone ====================
OK, I'll give it a shot: There are 4 things you can do to a snowboard:
Pivot it, pressure it, edge it and, yes, twist it. Since many of the
alpine focused decks are pretty stiff torsionally, the twisting concept
is pretty minimal. However, if you ride fairly flat angles and a
relatively soft board like a 4X4/AWD/Axis, then you can actually twist
the board to initiate a turn. Think about pressing down with your front
set of toes first to start a toeside turn, then following up with by
pressing the back toes down to finish and you have the concept. This is
best accomplished on a long mellow run as you will have to wait a while
(read- time it with a calendar) to allow your average alpine board to
gradually edge into a turn.

This is a much more applicable discussion in the freestyle, boards that
are as flexible as a french fry. Nevertheless, it is a valid topic. I
say this because I teach the "twisty" method of turn initiation to the
french fry crowd. BTW, I do it on my Axis.
=========================================

2. Not really. At least I don't visualize that way. I visualize it more
like David does - although I actually pressure the front edge of the
board first (not both feet). Anyways, so David know the technique you
describe it actually different from Bob F's description. He really
means twist. Bob's mentioned that he hasn't had much instructor
training outside of the PSIA and each instructor group has it's own
"school of teaching" in which they believe to be superior to all other
"schools of thought." I'm sure Bob would have a fit with the SBSS
school of teaching that advocates a rotational style
(
http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/tech.html). I'm not even sure if I
would teach that to my students either.

For a note to the some of members of the forum. We value your input
greatly, but you don't need to continually try to convince us of your
street cred and consequently your worth as a contributor. You don't
need to tell me how many boards you've sold to happy customers, or how
many of your students have suddenly "got it" with your help. To me
that's reminds me of one of the Real Men of Genius commercials by Bud
Light. Listen here (http://tinyurl.com/j5axj). Let your thoughts stand
on their own merits.


Nice addition to the discussion. You are right about the "extreemcarving"
turning style. It is very different from what I have been taught. The body
rotation seen in their videos is almost eliminated the way I have learned
recently. It is, as I remember, what I was taught a couple decades ago,
and the way I was trying to ride before I talked my way into the
snowboard instructor clinics a few years ago instead of the ski clinics
I had done earlier. Once I learned the newer technique, I found my
confidence increased rapidly, as I could turn when I wanted much
more reliably. That is why I bring it up when someone expresses
questions with their turning technique. Enough said.

Bob


  #23  
Old December 27th 06, 02:47 AM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Mike T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?

1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the
board by moving the feet in opposite direction


Like Lonerider I heard about that technique after having ridden for a number
of years and having had quite a bit of instruction. I heard it from the
same source he did as well as from the head snowboard instructor at
Timberline.

2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding.


I've played with it some, both in hard and soft boots and soft (in both
cases, on softer boards for the given application). For me it's most
applicable for turning in deep mashed potatoes where you can't really carve
and you can't really slide either. But I don't use it for my everyday
riding as I tend to be either carving or enjoying the freshies :-)

Mike T





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  #24  
Old January 3rd 07, 11:52 AM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Jeremy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?

wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing from others on here if:


1 - When learning to ride, they were told to make turns by twisting the
board by moving the feet in opposite direction


I had meant to write up my experience trying this a few weeks ago, but rock
damage has kept me rather busy...

No, I didn't learn to ride this way, nor had I heard of it until it was
mentioned either here or on rec.skiing.alpine a month or two ago.
I think I was taught to pivot, and engage the uphill edge. Carving, I think,
came as a result of shortening the pivot and applying greater edge pressure
sooner in the turn.

The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a
slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front
releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half
of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of
the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact.
I don't have a particularly stiff board, but perhaps low mass, soft boots
and high binding angles conspire to defeat this technique.

Maybe this would have been acceptable to someone just learning. For me, it
was clunky and slow.

2 - If they now use this technique in their own riding.


Tried it, over the course of a few runs on intermediate slopes, and decided
to discard it.

  #25  
Old January 3rd 07, 05:24 PM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Bob F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,296
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?


"Jeremy" wrote in message
...

The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a
slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front
releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half
of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of
the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact.


Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge
releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill
edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill
while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the
rear edge follows the front and pressure equalizes.

The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny
slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board
will start to turn with no other body motion.

Bob


  #26  
Old January 3rd 07, 06:16 PM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Jeremy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?

Bob F wrote:

"Jeremy" wrote in message
...


The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was a
slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to front
releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front half
of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge of
the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact.


Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge
releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill
edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill
while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the


The front of the board turns while the rear does not? Taking that to an
extreme leads to very funny pictures in my head.
With a bit of balance and/or the right conditions, the front of the board
can be completely off the snow while the rear maintains edge contact. Other
than the flexing in three dimensions allowed by the board, both ends still
turn in the same direction.

Perhaps you mean that the board pivots around the rear, in which case both
ends share angular rather than linear velocity, leading to a casual
observation that one end is moving while the other stays put.

The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny
slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board
will start to turn with no other body motion.


I'm not saying that *attempting* to twist the board didn't result in a turn,
but rather that I did not experience a satisfying turn as a result. My
expectations may be a bit high for a technique aimed at someone trying to
turn a board for the first time.
  #27  
Old January 4th 07, 04:51 AM posted to rec.skiing.snowboard
Bob F
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,296
Default Is my heel dragging the snow?


"Jeremy" wrote in message
...
Bob F wrote:

"Jeremy" wrote in message
...


The result: Twisting didn't work for me. The best I could manage was

a
slightly staccato version of rolling from edge to edge, and back to

front
releasing one turn and starting the next. Applying force to the front

half
of the board resulted in peeling off the pressure on the opposite edge

of
the rear half before the new inside edge made noteworthy snow contact.


Contact with the "new" front edge is not made before the "old" rear edge
releases. The twist of the front of the board merely releases the uphill
edge at the front of the board, allowing it to start turning downhill
while the rear of the board does not. As the turn progresses, the


The front of the board turns while the rear does not? Taking that to an
extreme leads to very funny pictures in my head.
With a bit of balance and/or the right conditions, the front of the board
can be completely off the snow while the rear maintains edge contact.

Other
than the flexing in three dimensions allowed by the board, both ends still
turn in the same direction.

Perhaps you mean that the board pivots around the rear, in which case both
ends share angular rather than linear velocity, leading to a casual
observation that one end is moving while the other stays put.


By releasing the edge on only the front of the board, the front of the
board begins to slip down the hill, turning the board.

The best way to see this is to try it at very low speed on a bunny
slope traverse. Twist the front of the board and wait. The board
will start to turn with no other body motion.


I'm not saying that *attempting* to twist the board didn't result in a

turn,
but rather that I did not experience a satisfying turn as a result. My
expectations may be a bit high for a technique aimed at someone trying to
turn a board for the first time.


It is aimed at someone trying to turn the first time, and continues to
be useful as skill develops. Learning to use this, like any other technique,
requires practice. I am still using it as I develop my skills in the
steep/deep
crud and the moguls. To me, it seems to significantly reduce the risk
of catching my edges when trying to turn in difficult circumstances. It
makes a huge difference for me when riding switch, for instance.

I am certainly not trying to tell you you should turn this way, but if I
can help a few people improve their capabilities by trying something
new, I'll be pleased.

Classes start Sat, so maybe I'll lose the desire to "teach" here.

Bob


 




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