Can I get fishscale metal edge skis to glide?

I just got my first bc ski package. My skis are 200 cm Madshus
Glittertinds (metal edge, fishscales, 68-55-62). They are probably an
analog of Karhu GXTs (spelling?). I am 6', ~185 lbs.

I put the same glide wax on the fishscale-free area of the bc skis and
on my racing RCS 195 cm skating skis, 2005 edition (yeah, I know). I
left the fishscales "as they are", no wax (can't really iron the wax
in, I guess).

I took the bc skis out on fresh powder at Royal Gorge (just got 6 feet
of the fresh stuff in the Sierras) and was... well... happy - much
lighter than heavy Karhus 10th mountain skis I rented before. The soft
tips floated above the powder just enough to keep the skis above the
snow surface.

*However* and this is where the problem is - I also skied a bit on
the groomed trails - just to get pack to the parking lot. For the same
amount of effort (for example, double-poling) the bc skis glide ~3
times worse. May be even ~5 times worse than the racing skis. I bet if
I made my glide better on the groomed trails (using that as a "model
system) it would help me move faster through the backcountry as well
(not just crawling along slightly faster than showshoes).

Which parameter that differentiates a bc ski from a racing ski slows
it down the most?
The fishscales?
The absence of wax on the fishscales?
The absence of chamber in the bc skis?
The large surface area making creating more friction with the snow?
The skis just felt "flat" - the scales always felt engaged with the
snow even during the glide phase.
Is the task of achieving glide in the backcountry powder different
from the task of achieving glide on groomed trails, and are these
tasks exclusive?

Most importantly - can I get a bc ski that would approach a racing ski
in glide, say, to within a factor of 1.5? Heck, I can even get into
classic waxing again. Do they sell fishscale-free bc skis? Can I just
get extra long racing classic skis?

Sorry, I guess, I am just spoiled by effortless gliding of a skating
ski.

On a positive note, my Adventure 8 Salomon boots are exactly what I
wanted. They feel pretty much like my Racing pilots.

wrote:
I just got my first bc ski package. My skis are 200 cm Madshus
Glittertinds (metal edge, fishscales, 68-55-62). They are probably an
analog of Karhu GXTs (spelling?). I am 6', ~185 lbs.

I put the same glide wax on the fishscale-free area of the bc skis and
on my racing RCS 195 cm skating skis, 2005 edition (yeah, I know). I
left the fishscales "as they are", no wax (can't really iron the wax
in, I guess).

You don't iron wax into the scales, but you should put something there.
You can use Maxiglide, or something like STP "Son of a Gun Protectant."
It prevents icing and greatly increases glide. I guess Armor All is
about the same as "Son of a Gun." You can also use Dupont Multi-Use
Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer, which is available at Lowe's in a
spray can, or from some cycling sources in a squeeze bottle, i.e.

"http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Multi-Use-Lubricant-Fluoropolymer-Aerosol/dp/B000GL19TY"
"http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Multi-Use-Lubricant-Fluoropolymer-squeeze/dp/B00030BFEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1236495708&sr= 1-1"

My first pair of skis were no-wax Fischer E99s with 2/3 metal edges,
sort of light weight backcountry touring. I remember that putting some
paste wax or silicon spray on the fish scales helped, but the skis
were a bit soft for my weight, so that I was bottoming them out,
dragging the pattern. And those had the Crown flex, if I recall
correctly.

Gene

SMS wrote:

wrote:
I just got my first bc ski package. My skis are 200 cm Madshus
Glittertinds (metal edge, fishscales, 68-55-62). They are probably an
analog of Karhu GXTs (spelling?). I am 6', ~185 lbs.

I put the same glide wax on the fishscale-free area of the bc skis and
on my racing RCS 195 cm skating skis, 2005 edition (yeah, I know). I
left the fishscales "as they are", no wax (can't really iron the wax
in, I guess).

You don't iron wax into the scales, but you should put something there.
You can use Maxiglide, or something like STP "Son of a Gun Protectant."
It prevents icing and greatly increases glide. I guess Armor All is
about the same as "Son of a Gun." You can also use Dupont Multi-Use
Lubricant With Teflon Fluoropolymer, which is available at Lowe's in a
spray can, or from some cycling sources in a squeeze bottle, i.e.

"http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Multi-Use-Lubricant-Fluoropolymer-Aerosol/dp/B000GL19TY"
"http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Multi-Use-Lubricant-Fluoropolymer-squeeze/dp/B00030BFEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1236495708&sr= 1-1"

On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 21:39:12 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Which parameter that differentiates a bc ski from a racing ski slows
it down the most?
The fishscales?
The absence of wax on the fishscales?
The absence of chamber in the bc skis?
The large surface area making creating more friction with the snow?
The skis just felt "flat" - the scales always felt engaged with the
snow even during the glide phase.

I've got a pair of fishscales skis that are sized like racing skis.
In hard snow the scales just barely clear the snow -- or occasionally
touch it. The bases are also solid plastic, so they don't hold wax
well, have no structure, etc.

They are a definitely slower than my racing skate skis.

I think the slowness of your skis is from all the factors you mention.
I put Swix F4 (a liquid low-flouro glider) on them -- the whole
bottom. I think this helps a bit.

Perhaps once a year I hotwax the glide surfaces but I'm not sure if
this helps. I hotwaxed the scales once but it was such a chore
getting wax out of the pattern that I won't do that again.

On Mar 7, 10:39*pm, "
wrote:
I just got my first bc ski package. My skis are 200 cm Madshus
Glittertinds (metal edge, fishscales, 68-55-62). They are probably an
analog of Karhu GXTs (spelling?). I am 6', ~185 lbs.

I put the same glide wax on the fishscale-free area of the bc skis and
on my racing RCS 195 cm skating skis, 2005 edition (yeah, I know). I
left the fishscales "as they are", no wax (can't really iron the wax
in, I guess).

I took the bc skis out on fresh powder at Royal Gorge (just got 6 feet
of the fresh stuff in the Sierras) and was... well... happy - much
lighter than heavy Karhus 10th mountain skis I rented before. The soft
tips floated above the powder just enough to keep the skis above the
snow surface.

*However* *and this is where the problem is - I also skied a bit on
the groomed trails - just to get pack to the parking lot. For the same
amount of effort (for example, double-poling) the bc skis glide ~3
times worse. May be even ~5 times worse than the racing skis. I bet if
I made my glide better on the groomed trails (using that as a "model
system) it would help me move faster through the backcountry as well
(not just crawling along slightly faster than showshoes).

Which parameter that differentiates a bc ski from a racing ski slows
it down the most?
The fishscales?
The absence of wax on the fishscales?
The absence of chamber in the bc skis?
The large surface area making creating more friction with the snow?
The skis just *felt "flat" - the scales always felt engaged with the
snow even during the glide phase.
Is the task of achieving glide in the backcountry powder different
from the task of achieving glide on groomed trails, and are these
tasks exclusive?

Most importantly - can I get a bc ski that would approach a racing ski
in glide, say, to within a factor of 1.5? Heck, I can even get into
classic waxing again. *Do they sell fishscale-free bc skis? Can I just
get extra long racing classic skis?

Sorry, I guess, I am just spoiled by effortless gliding of a skating
ski.

On a positive note, my Adventure 8 Salomon boots are exactly what I
wanted. They feel pretty much like my Racing pilots.

My 15 year old Fisher E99 patterened metal edge skis are pretty fast
gliders for BC skis. The starting point is the skis. The E99s have a
fairly shallow negative grip zone pattern meaning that Fisher started
with a flat base and machined or cut the pattern into the base. Some
BC skis have agressive positive patterns that engage the snow more
agressively.

I picked my E99s using the "paper test" getting 210 cm skis when the
tables would have suggested 205 cm skis for my 77 kg. BC skis that
are too soft will be belly draggers.

Contrary to popular wisdom that the grip zone of "no-wax" skis cannot
be hot waxed, I hot wax the grip zone at the end of the ski season and
sometimes mid-season if I am using the BC skis a lot. I hot wax with
soft (e.g. Toko Yellow, Swix CH10, Star Uniblock Yellow) wax and my
Toko iron with the tech paper clip saturating the Toko paper. The
paper paints on a thin coat reducing the amount of wax that I need to
clean out of the pattern. After reheating the wax a couple of time, I
use fresh tech paper to wipe the molten wax off of the surface of the
grip zone. After the hot wax cools, scrape and brush what you can off
of the pattern. Then it's dental pick (from you friendly dental
hygenist or surplu dealer) time cleaning the wax out of the pattern.
Brush again and use the white polishing "Fibertex" and go skiing.

Of course the other thing that makes my E99s fast is that after a lot
of use on abrasive snow the pattern begins to dull and gets a lot
faster.

Lastly, I use Toko Hi-Fluro Paste wax on the grip zone.

On Mar 8, 1:54*pm, wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:39*pm, "



wrote:
I just got my first bc ski package. My skis are 200 cm Madshus
Glittertinds (metal edge, fishscales, 68-55-62). They are probably an
analog of Karhu GXTs (spelling?). I am 6', ~185 lbs.

I put the same glide wax on the fishscale-free area of the bc skis and
on my racing RCS 195 cm skating skis, 2005 edition (yeah, I know). I
left the fishscales "as they are", no wax (can't really iron the wax
in, I guess).

I took the bc skis out on fresh powder at Royal Gorge (just got 6 feet
of the fresh stuff in the Sierras) and was... well... happy - much
lighter than heavy Karhus 10th mountain skis I rented before. The soft
tips floated above the powder just enough to keep the skis above the
snow surface.

*However* *and this is where the problem is - I also skied a bit on
the groomed trails - just to get pack to the parking lot. For the same
amount of effort (for example, double-poling) the bc skis glide ~3
times worse. May be even ~5 times worse than the racing skis. I bet if
I made my glide better on the groomed trails (using that as a "model
system) it would help me move faster through the backcountry as well
(not just crawling along slightly faster than showshoes).

Which parameter that differentiates a bc ski from a racing ski slows
it down the most?
The fishscales?
The absence of wax on the fishscales?
The absence of chamber in the bc skis?
The large surface area making creating more friction with the snow?
The skis just *felt "flat" - the scales always felt engaged with the
snow even during the glide phase.
Is the task of achieving glide in the backcountry powder different
from the task of achieving glide on groomed trails, and are these
tasks exclusive?

Most importantly - can I get a bc ski that would approach a racing ski
in glide, say, to within a factor of 1.5? Heck, I can even get into
classic waxing again. *Do they sell fishscale-free bc skis? Can I just
get extra long racing classic skis?

Sorry, I guess, I am just spoiled by effortless gliding of a skating
ski.

On a positive note, my Adventure 8 Salomon boots are exactly what I
wanted. They feel pretty much like my Racing pilots.

My 15 year old Fisher E99 patterened metal edge skis are pretty fast
gliders for BC skis. *The starting point is the skis. *The E99s have a
fairly shallow negative grip zone pattern meaning that Fisher started
with a flat base and machined or cut the pattern into the base. *Some
BC skis have agressive positive patterns that engage the snow more
agressively.

I picked my E99s using the "paper test" getting 210 cm skis when the
tables would have suggested 205 cm skis for my 77 kg. *BC skis that
are too soft will be belly draggers.

Contrary to popular wisdom that the grip zone of "no-wax" skis cannot
be hot waxed, I hot wax the grip zone at the end of the ski season and
sometimes mid-season if I am using the BC skis a lot. *I hot wax with
soft (e.g. Toko Yellow, Swix CH10, Star Uniblock Yellow) wax and my
Toko iron with the tech paper clip saturating the Toko paper. *The
paper paints on a thin coat reducing the amount of wax that I need to
clean out of the pattern. *After reheating the wax a couple of time, I
use fresh tech paper to wipe the molten wax off of the surface of the
grip zone. *After the hot wax cools, scrape and brush what you can off
of the pattern. *Then it's dental pick (from you friendly dental
hygenist or surplu dealer) time cleaning the wax out of the pattern.
Brush again and use the white polishing "Fibertex" and go skiing.

Of course the other thing that makes my E99s fast is that after a lot
of use on abrasive snow the pattern begins to dull and gets a lot
faster.

Lastly, I use Toko Hi-Fluro Paste wax on the grip zone.

Hey, some good advice on waxing the scales, thank you!

Here is a crazy idea - buying long racing classic skis, putting them
in a Bridgeport, and machining the negative scale pattern. But racing
skis won't have metal edges...

Do they make metal edge skis with racing-like scintered bases, no
fishscales? Downhill racing skis have metal edges, right? They should
be able to hold wax well.

In article ,
wrote:
Do they make metal edge skis with racing-like scintered bases, no
fishscales? Downhill racing skis have metal edges, right? They should
be able to hold wax well.

I've got some Asnes backcountry touring skis with metal
edges, sintered bases, and no fishscales. I'm very, very
happy with them.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

wrote:
Do they make metal edge skis with racing-like scintered bases, no
fishscales?

My first pair of skis, before I ever got any race skis, was the
Madshus Pellestova wax skis (with black sintered base), set up with
SNS-BC bindings. They have a double camber, full metal edges, and are
just skinny enough to fit into set tracks. I got them because they
were supposed to be decent backcountry skis (telemark writer Steve
Barnett was recommending them) that were still pretty fast. I don't
use them anymore because the boots that I use with them are out of
commission (broken sole), and for backcountry, my waxless touring skis
are more convenient. They take longer to kick wax because they are
wider than race skis. The Pellestovas were fast enough that I could
keep up with my girlfriend, a good NCAA skier at the time, when she
was on her classic race skis, without any extra effort. Basically,
they are almost as fast as race skis.

My touring skis are 50 mm wide straight-sided Peltonens with a
negative fishscale pattern and no steel edges. I set them up with
Profil bindings, and use with my classic race boots. I got them for
$25 new/unmounted from a friend, and I think were selling for $50 on-
line. I've never put any wax on them (except sometimes ancient Cerax
AS dry snow, because I have it, and it's quick and easy), and they are
reasonably fast in most conditions, especially new powder below
freezing. They are slower than my race skis, and the Pellestovas
though. The only time they really suck is fresh snow at around 32 F,
when they sometimes ice up. On my favorite backcountry loop, when I
use them I seem to always be going faster than others (who are on gear
ranging from heavy telemark to backcountry to touring, or racing skate/
classic skis), recently even a fast looking guy on classic race skis
(who didn't have enough kick on the uphills).

I've got some Asnes backcountry touring skis withmetal
edges, sintered bases, and no fishscales. *I'm very, very
happy with them.

Hmmm. Never heard of Asnes. Then I looked them up and it looks like
they were used in tours to the Nordic Pole. Interesting. I will look
into them.

My first pair of skis, before I ever got any race skis, was the
Madshus Pellestova wax skis (with black sintered base), set up with
SNS-BC bindings. *They have a double camber, fullmetaledges, and are
just skinny enough to fit into set tracks. *I got them because they
were supposed to be decent backcountry skis (telemark writer Steve
Barnett was recommending them) that were still pretty fast. *I don't
use them anymore because the boots that I use with them are out of
commission (broken sole), and for backcountry, my waxless touring skis
are more convenient. *They take longer tokickwax because they are
wider than race skis. *The Pellestovas were fast enough that I could
keep up with my girlfriend, a good NCAA skier at the time, when she
was on her classic race skis, without any extra effort. *Basically,
they are almost as fast as race skis.


I looked into Pellestovas but it looks like they are not produced
anymore, and my Glittertinds seemed like the closest match. I may
still be able to find them somwhere.
Did the Pellestovas have a double camber? Did you try them in powder
in the backcountry?