Questions about waxing

I've some questions related to ski waxing. I've been out of x-country skiing
for about a decade. I'm now getting back in shape (and on my skis) but I
have a little bit of catch-up to do about ski preparation and waxing.

First, it seems that the best way to prepare new skis is to apply many
layers of hot glider on them to saturate the base (or put them in a Toko
termo bag to save a couple of layers and hours!). I have a question
regarding that. I know that a ski base is porous and the goal of ski
preparation is to fill the pore and scrape the base to remove the excedent
glider wax. I'm wondering why in this case it's important to apply many
layers of glider on a new ski? If the base is saturated with lets say 6
layers of yellow glider, all the pores will be filled. If I want to apply a
race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able to
penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with yellow
glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base is
saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed when
you'll scrape the ski?

Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix Krystal VR
or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!). Are they
providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using 10-15
years ago?

Third, do you have any documents and/or website I can access with neutral
information or tricks about waxing (both gliders and kick waxes)? I remember
when I was skiing that for exemple a blend of 2/3 green Start glider + 1/3
of yellow Toko was doing miracle in some conditions. If I'm looking at the
wax compagnies website, they're all preaching for their products. I know
experimentation is a good way to learn but as the "new" (at least for me!)
waxes are somewhat expensive, I would like to havefeedbacks and advices
rater that try (and buy) all of them!

Last, I'm curious about Start grip tape. Do you know if it's available in
North America?

Thanks a lot!

SebB

p.s. I received 3 pairs of Visu, 2 skate + 1 classic. I've tried the classic
pair last weekend for 15k. I'll try the skate model tomorrow to see hot they
feel compared to my 1990's RCS.

race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able
to
penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with
yellow
glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base
is
saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed
when
you'll scrape the ski?

When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp
sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't.
Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbed
by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax. That
process will properly harden the plastic to the desired level. You ski
on the plastic, not wax. The wax is put on to change the plastic.

Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix
Krystal VR
or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!).
Are they
providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using
10-15
years ago?

I would say a definite yes. They resist icing so much better than older
klisters. However, our World Cup technician tells us that the "normal"
klister is still used on the WC in certain conditions, so if you have
old klister or want to save money you can use the regular stuff and
still have a good time.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:

When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp
sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't.
Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbe=
d
by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax.

Where does the existing wax go?

I'm not being facetious, just curious. Your metaphor seems to reach its=
=

limit b/c one always needs to wring out a saturated sponge to make room =

for new water & there isn't a comparable process with the base of a ski.=
=

Does it end up going deeper into the base, or does it mix with the new w=
ax =

on the surface and gradually get removed through scraping / brushing?

Good question Derick! I would have asked exactly the same thing!

Curious to read the answer!

SebB

"Derick Fay" a écrit dans le message de
newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost...
On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:

When you want to wipe up a spill you wet the sponge first. A damp
sponge easily absorbs the spilled fluid, but a dry sponge doesn't.
Same thing with the ski base. The race wax can be more easily absorbed
by the saturated base where it will replace the existing wax.

Where does the existing wax go?

I'm not being facetious, just curious. Your metaphor seems to reach its
limit b/c one always needs to wring out a saturated sponge to make room
for new water & there isn't a comparable process with the base of a ski.
Does it end up going deeper into the base, or does it mix with the new wax
on the surface and gradually get removed through scraping / brushing?

Might be interesting to weigh the skis with a precise scale after numerous
wax and scrape cycles.
GJ

"Derick Fay" wrote in message
newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost...
On 5 Dec 2003 09:58:55 -0800, Rob Bradlee wrote:

Where does the existing wax go?

"Derick Fay" wrote in message
newsprzqbyijvczptmm@localhost...

Where does the existing wax go?

When you put a new wax on you heat both the new wax on the surface and the
wax that is already located within the top layer of the ski base structure.
The heat turns the wax into liquid. Other than some incompatible liquids
like oil and water, liquids tend to disperse evenly when mixed to produce an
even blend. At the ski base surface when you are applying a new wax there
will be relatively more of the new wax in liquid form than of the old wax
imbedded in the ski. As a result the blend of liquid wax on and immediately
below the surface will be predominantly composed of the new wax.

The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has been
scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having a
component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a good
quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often encounter for
impregnating new skis with wax.

I was once at a presentation by a Toko waxing specialist who claimed that
not all brands of wax interact with the desired result. For that reason you
should only use Toko waxes so you would know that all waxes would be
compatible. I didn't have the audacity to ask him if that meant that if I
had Start wax on my skis I should never switch to Toko.

Scott

A follow-up: for new skis, the recommendation I've generally seen is to =

impregnate with a warm (e.g. Swix CH8 or 10) wax, 3-4 coats (scrape, =

brush), then the wax of the day. Which in the conditions I usually ski =
in =

is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7 for t=
he =

impregnation as well?

The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has bee=
n
scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having=
a
component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a=
=

good quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often =

encounter for impregnating new skis with wax.

That's another school of thought. The warm wax has a lower melting point so
it is easier to fully saturate the base. Also, because it is more fluid it
can be used to draw out dirt that is imbedded in the base. I prefer to use
the most commonly used wax, but there is good support for the soft wax
method as well. Who knows which is best in the long term?

Scott

"Derick Fay" wrote in message
newsprzqps3ptczptmm@localhost...
A follow-up: for new skis, the recommendation I've generally seen is to
impregnate with a warm (e.g. Swix CH8 or 10) wax, 3-4 coats (scrape,
brush), then the wax of the day. Which in the conditions I usually ski in
is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7 for the
impregnation as well?

The wax that remains imbedded in the ski base when the surface has been
scraped will be a blend containing mostly the new wax, but also having a
component of the old wax. This is one of the reasons you should use a
good quality wax suitable for the temperature range you most often
encounter for impregnating new skis with wax.

Derick Fay wrote:
Which in the conditions I usually ski
in is more often CH7 or CH6 temperature range. Should I be using CH7
for the impregnation as well?

I spoke with a wax tech who is also an avid racer. With a quiver large
enough to have a dedicated ski for cold weather, he puts nothing but
cold hard wax in that ski. Ever. I have also heard the other, that the
soft waxes will help the harder waxes absorb in. It seems obvious you
will end up with a mixure in that case though. I think it also makes
sense to get some harder waxes into a dedicated warm weather ski to
"protect the base."

When confronted with conflicting information, I just stop worrying about
it and put a coat of wax of the day on spending more time on the trail

SebB wrote:

....
layers of glider on a new ski? If the base is saturated with lets say 6
layers of yellow glider, all the pores will be filled. If I want to apply a
race day glider on top of that, I wonder if that glider will be able to
penetrate the base since all the pores are already saturated with yellow
glider. In other words, don't you think that after 2 layers, the base is
saturated and all you put on the ski pass this point will be removed when
you'll scrape the ski?

No not even close. After 2 layers ski is almost same as it was before.
You
can see that when applying 5th or 6th layer and base still soacks wax in
so you can see base getting dry. Besides that wax gets out of base when
skiing so when preparing skis for race you have more then enough space
in base pores for new wax. Besides that you get more then enough space
in
pores even if you just scraped transport wax off and put race wax on.

Second question is related to kick waxes. All the Start MFW, Swix Krystal VR
or Toko Cabon gripwaxes are new for me (and pretty expensive too!). Are they
providing a real improvement over traditional gripwaxes I was using 10-15
years ago?
For normal people? It is improvement but I don't know if it's worth all
that money. For race? Definitely! For races (and sorry I don't mean
place
1017 on Vassa as real race), every single thing which makes you faster
is worth money spend on it, even if it's just 1sec in 10km. Because
sometimes
that 1 sec makes difference between first and second place.
But basicaly main difference is glide speed which is much better with
new waxes as it was with old ones. Grip is same or sometimes even worse
as it was before, but technique changed so much that you don't need
to have perfect kick anymore for skiing faster. With skis which I wax
for
myself when I go skiing, I can easily ski, but everyone else are
complaining
it doesn't have any grip.


Third, do you have any documents and/or website I can access with neutral
information or tricks about waxing (both gliders and kick waxes)? I remember
when I was skiing that for exemple a blend of 2/3 green Start glider + 1/3
of yellow Toko was doing miracle in some conditions. If I'm looking at the
wax compagnies website, they're all preaching for their products. I know
experimentation is a good way to learn but as the "new" (at least for me!)
waxes are somewhat expensive, I would like to havefeedbacks and advices
rater that try (and buy) all of them!

I don't think you will find anything like that. The only real thing
with this is testing, and lot of experiences. For myself I can easily
say now that I can wax for my sking without looking to thermometer,
and for my wife I just take 1 step warmer wax and she's happy too. But
this is a bit different then before when skis needed to be as fast as
possible and with as good as possible grip. For something like that
noone
will tell you their tips and tricks. For normal skiing I would say it's
enough to follow temperatures written on box. For everything else
testing
is only solution... lot of testing.
--
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