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#1
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German Training Plans
I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German
National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3 different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor. |
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#2
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German Training Plans
On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:
I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3 different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor. 1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans. Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm. An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how little we really know. Randy |
#3
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German Training Plans
On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, "
wrote: On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote: I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3 different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor. 1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans. Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm. An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how little we really know. Randy Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered a used copy for a cent through Amazon. I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple, straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any water? Thanks. Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!), Christopher |
#4
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German Training Plans
On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote:
On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, " wrote: On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote: I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3 different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor. 1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans. Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm. An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how little we really know. Randy Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered a used copy for a cent through Amazon. I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple, straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any water? Thanks. Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!), Christopher- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have Lee's endurance training book. When it came out it really turned heads. Many coaches said no one is training like that. However what I found is his principles follow some very other successful coaches advice. Mafetone coached Mark Allen to a record number of Iron Man wins. Mafetone said we need to train at the highest aerobic level just below Anaerobic Threshold level (the point where we develop lactate). He felt this would bring about the fastest possible gains in fitness. This closely mimics Lee's principle. However the majority of the worlds elite ski racers don't follow these principles. Read a lot and decide for yourself. I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri and Mt. bike training. He outlines heart values and benefits the best I've seen. |
#5
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German Training Plans
On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote:
[ ] Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. [ ] I remember 20 yrs ago when I was racing/training that I compared my hours and levels to the US team and I was about on par for intervals--- but they had 6X more easy hours than I did. And, of course, they were twice as fast as me. --JP |
#6
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German Training Plans
On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote: and need to know where to go now that I have a decent base. On Oct 9, 8:21 am, ADK Skier wrote: I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri and Mt. bike training. I agree w/ ADK Skier's recommendation about Joe Friel; his books are some of the best and most easily understood about training, note that they are new and revised in the 2nd Edition. His weight training plan is the best I've seen and translates well to benefit nordic skiers. One area of training I think is underemphasized is that of simple nutrition and hydration. Not paying attention to this can reverse hours of training simply because your body doesn't have the fuel to perform. The other area of training that is also underemphasized is that of structure - not knowing what we are doing out there. Most of us simply go out and ski or RS, with no goal in sight for the day. On hard days, we don't go hard enough and on slow days we go too hard. As for tassava's question on "where to go now", I would suggest a plan for structured rollerski workouts. I think all of us would probably gain more benefit from improvements in technique than we'll gain from strength and fitness workouts. My $ 0.02.... - Bob |
#7
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German Training Plans
Hi guys
Probably some people won't agree with me, but... Personally I was in competitive xc skiing for 20 years, so I actually know at least something. I might be wrong, but I would say debates about how to train same way as top athletes are training, are pretty much useless. When I was still skiing, I was skiing and nothing else. Skiing was my job, and well... my life too. Once you have day job, and maybe family on top of that, you have only few hours a day (probably a week, not a day) to spend for this. With this, everything is pretty much useless. So skiing (or any other sport) is just fun. And that means you go out for fun, not to stick to some plan. I still love to go skiing, but I go as I feel like. If I feel like, I go at 180bps for 2 hours, but if I don't feel like, I go at 110bps for 30mins with stopping on top of every uphill to admire nature... something I never did when I was still racing. Same thing goes for my mtb rides (other sport I really love to do) in summer. It's fun, and that's what sport (not top level sport of course) is suppose to be. With day job, you will never be World cup winner, so it's useless to bother with all sorts of plans and forcing yourself to some trainings. Go out because you want to have fun, not because your plan says so. I did both things... stick to plan, and now I go out to have fun, so I know both sides. I don't regret not even for second, I spent 20 years for sort of nothing (I never won anything like World cup, and I wasn't even close to this anyway), and if I could choose again, I would go again same way. But when it comes to fun, nowadays I have a lot more fun then I had years ago, when I had to go out in cold and rain, because my plan said so. So have fun and enjoy, and don't bother with percentages of slow training vs. fast intervals Take care, Primoz |
#8
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German Training Plans
On Oct 9, 12:06 am, tassava wrote:
On Oct 7, 9:34 pm, " wrote: On Oct 6, 7:30 am, ADK Skier wrote: I learned yesterday a source in the U.S. got a hold of the German National Teams training plan. Has anyone else heard of this. It's no secret the German's have been very successful recently having 3 different team members e.g. Sommerfelt, Teichman, and Angerer, winning the overall WC in last 5 or 6 years. Apparently they are training at really low heart rates for well over 1100 hours annually. Kind of sounds like what Gunde Svan was doing in the 80's. Sports Physiology is always interesting to discuss because for us average VO2 Max folks we always hope we can squeeze something more out of our motor. 1100+ hours, huh? I'm not sure I'd call that good news for us average, working, family Joes 'n Jeans. Anyway, I think the gospel on improving VO2 is still interval work, on top of a good base of endurance work. I think it's one of the few things known pretty much for sure in the field. Could be these guys all have such an awsome superior natural VO2 max that they don't really need to improve on it, I suppose, but I doubt it. Could it be an attempt to mislead the competition? Nah. . . . . . hmm. An interesting, entertaining, lay-oriented read about the science and business of fitness is Gina Kolata's book Ultimate Fitness. Made me realize just how much myth and plain BS is believed and sold, and how little we really know. Randy Thanks for that book recommendation; it looked so good that I ordered a used copy for a cent through Amazon. I wonder, though, if anyone can offer recommendations of simple, straightforward training guides, either for endurance sports in general or XC skiing in particular. I'm in okay shape, but I want to really *train* for a couple ski marathons, and need to know where to go now that I have a decent base. Do Lee Borowski's books hold any water? Thanks. Thinking snow (and hoping for plenty of torrents this winter!), Christopher- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Chris, I believe the book you seek is "How To When To Why To" by TorBjorn Karlsen. He used to offer it on fasterskier. I'm unsure where you can get it now, perhaps reliable racing. Dell |
#9
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German Training Plans
When I see figures like 1100 hours, I'm always wondering what's
included. An LSD-centered program with regular L3-4 makes sense to me, but I don't think there's one absolutely established source for training advice, even for periodization. There's a debate, as you probably know, between the role of LSD vs. interval block-based regimes, and successful racers have come from both (so it is claimed). Then, there are the matters of what of all this means for masters, how much time you have, what your goals and limitations are, and what has worked and not worked for you. I've found Dick Taylor's book No Pain No Gain to be very helpful overall (sold via Akers). So has been following Kris Freeman's development via Zach Caldwell's site, for a *feel of how to proceed and what some of the issues are (2007 is there but not 2006). Steinar Mundal's early fall program for masters posted on fasterskier.com makes a lot of sense to me (http://www.fasterskier.com/training4565.html). As does the advice from Bob that each week and each workout have specific goals, even if adjustment on the fly is needed, and that attention to technique be part of everything. It's fun to just go out and have fun recreationally, but it shouldn't be confused with training. Over time I've gotten away from the Borowski method, or at least as I interpreted it, because it seems insufficiently structured and tends to combine different kinds of workouts way too much. Roger ADK Skier wrote: I have Lee's endurance training book. When it came out it really turned heads. Many coaches said no one is training like that. However what I found is his principles follow some very other successful coaches advice. Mafetone coached Mark Allen to a record number of Iron Man wins. Mafetone said we need to train at the highest aerobic level just below Anaerobic Threshold level (the point where we develop lactate). He felt this would bring about the fastest possible gains in fitness. This closely mimics Lee's principle. However the majority of the worlds elite ski racers don't follow these principles. Read a lot and decide for yourself. I would pick up Joel Fiel's book about Tri and Mt. bike training. He outlines heart values and benefits the best I've seen. |
#10
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German Training Plans
Well put Primoz. I think that is an excellent and insightful
perspective. |
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