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Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 14th 03, 02:33 AM
GR
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries


I should know better, but I have to ask because I don't; should we kick
down and back or just down and momentum supplies the back part? I always do
a down and then push back, but I am tooooooo self taught!
gr


"Hank Garretson" wrote in message
le.com...
At 05:36 AM 11 12 03 Thursday, Everett wrote:

For the past year I've been battling a recurrent problem -- pulled
soleus/gastrocnemius muscles -- in my lower leg. The problem is
associated only with classic XC; skating doesn't bother or trigger the
problem, probably because it involves a push to the side rather than a
kick back along the axis of the leg. In any case, I had to give up
classic skiing entirely last January.


I haven't followed responses to your query, so maybe I'm repeating, but

....

Indeed your problem could be from the "kick back" part. I suggest your
classic kick should be directly DOWN, not back. A quick impulsive kick
down that launches you onto the new glide ski.



Ski Exuberantly,

Hank

Mammoth Lakes, Calif.










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  #2  
Old December 14th 03, 03:22 AM
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but
sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other
is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes
for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski
forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball,
than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us).

I enjoy discussing this even more than skate technique, so hopefully
someone will refine, and perhaps even disagree with, the above paragraph.

Best, Peter
  #4  
Old December 14th 03, 06:58 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

A skier who is just relying on momentum is a skier who is slowing down.
Physics says that you have to _push_ something against something outside
yourself -- usually the snow (or a tree, or the skier behind you?) -- in
order to maintain your forward speed against the drag of friction and air
resistance. (unless you're on downhill or you've got a strong tailwind).

gr asked:
should we kick down and back or just down and momentum supplies the back

part?

Actually the "down" part is sometimes optional. Dryland runners and walkers
don't worry about kicking down, and they move forward just fine. The "down"
force from their body weight is gives their shoe enough grip to sustain
their push-force toward the back without slipping.

Most of the time on gentle trails that works fine for me when striding on
classic skis too, so I don't need to think about adding down-force with my
leg-push.

But often classic-stride skiers do run into two problems with that simple
runner - walker approach: The big one is just that don't _execute_ the
simple approach: They do not actually put _all_ their body weight on the
ski they're pushing with. They put some of their weight on the other ski,
or support some of it on their ski pole. So their foot slips back instead
of pushing them forward.

Peter Hoffman wrote
you kick the other ski forward, and that is done more
like kneeing an imaginary volleyball


That mental image helps lots of people keep all their weight _off_ the
non-kicking ski until after the kick is over -- so it fights the big problem
and helps skiers get back to the simple runner - walker approach. Provided
that that the deeper problem is also addressed with exercises to learn
committed balance on one ski. For lots more on that, see
http://roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/balance

The second problem is that the grip wax doesn't deliver enough grip to avoid
slipping back even _with_ the skier's full body weight committed to the
push-ski (the possible reasons would fill a book chapter). For me it
normally happens when I try to climb up a serious hill. So then I have to
supply some extra "down" force in my leg-push to keep from slipping -- often
it gets to the point where I've got an actual "hop" or "bound" in my stride.

Now the mental _image_ of kicking "down" through heel may help better engage
some leg muscles, even if the physics of their grip does not require any
extra help. And some racers might deliberately use less grip wax (to get
better glide) so they need extra "down" force even on gentle terrain.

I'm glad that my goals do not require me to play it so close to the edge on
waxing, so I'm glad to mostly just take the simple walker - runner approach
of using body weight to deliver the "down" I need to get grip to push with.

Ken


  #5  
Old December 15th 03, 02:55 AM
GR
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

Do I understand this correctly?:
I should kick down (flat footed) then knee the volley ball with my other
leg (forward), and not consciously kick back?
I am willing to try, but want to make sure I am understanding!
gr
wrote in message
...
I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but
sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other
is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes
for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski
forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball,
than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us).

I enjoy discussing this even more than skate technique, so hopefully
someone will refine, and perhaps even disagree with, the above paragraph.

Best, Peter



  #6  
Old December 15th 03, 04:51 AM
Hank Garretson
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

At 08:12 PM 13 12 03 Saturday, Peter wrote:
I always think there are two "kicks" in classic, not unrelated, but
sometimes confused with each other. One is down, and the other
is _forward_!! Neither is back, I'd say. The "back" part comes
for free from Mr. Isaac Newton, when you kick the other ski
forward, and that is done more like kneeing an imaginary volleyball,
than kicking an imaginary football (soccer ball to some of us).


"Kneeing an imaginary vollyball" is against the rules so I am not sure I
understand what you are suggesting. Please elaborate.
Ski Exuberantly,

Hank

Mammoth Lakes, Calif.








  #7  
Old December 15th 03, 04:51 AM
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

What you say Gary sounds just about exactly how I think about it, but
others may have better advice (I've never done any real coaching). If
I understand Ken correctly, he sounds correct to me when he says that
the downward kick is very largely just good weight transfer. And your
"flatfooted" for the down kick is good if you mean distribute the
weight over the entire foot, not too much on the front. Personally
I need to concentrate in early season especially on kicking down
with the heel. For me that gets the whole foot down, since there
seems to be a little demon inside me that wants to make me claw with
my toes too much. I have even traced a minor overuse injury that
sometimes happened to using the front of the foot too much in the
downward kick.

Best, Peter




  #8  
Old December 15th 03, 05:11 AM
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

Well, Hank, as long as the volleyball is imaginary, I must be breaking
rules that are imaginary! To elaborate, you imagine, each time you're
about to kick forward, the ball heading towards your kneecap, and it
needs to be given a good poke over an imaginary net about knee-high,
which is magically moving along in front of you. I really do need
this for my lazy left leg at the beginning of most seasons, though
this year, it's not so hard to get the feel again, as I spent more
hours on a nice pair of Marwe classic rollerskis that Jay T. sent me,
than on the 610's.

Best, Peter




  #9  
Old December 15th 03, 05:39 AM
Mike Hui
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Default related diagonal strike question: trailing leg

I find that I have to spend energy holding my trailing leg up or else the
(trailing) ski flops down on the track. This doesn't sound right because I
am spending energy in a non-productive manner.
Comments? Suggestions?

.... Mike


  #10  
Old December 15th 03, 02:41 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default Kick method? was Lower Leg injuries

Yes it seems like there's some bias wired into our cerebellum super-computer
that makes it easy for us to be sensitive to the benefits of using our calf
muscles for toe-push in forward propulsion -- and to forget to use our
quadriceps and rear gluteus butt muscles (further from the direct action?)
as much as we could. Seems that _thinking_ about toe-push just makes that
bias worse.

Peter Hoffman wrote:
there seems to be a little demon inside me that wants to
make me claw with my toes too much.


My normal strategy now is to _think_ about heel push and drive to remind my
unconscious super-computer to engage those bigger muscles, and trust that
the usual bias of that super-computer will ensure that the right amount of
toe-push gets engaged anyway.

The one situation where conscious thought about the front of the foot helps
is to get some extra grip for climbing up a step hill, at the initiation of
the leg-push -- see
http://roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/wax_pocket
But that is a static "isometric" down pressing (or "clawing" like Peter
says), not an active push movement. The actual backward push at that moment
is supplied by the rear gluteus muscles up at the butt and hip. The static
pressing of the toe is just to focus the down-pressure to help keep the
hip-push from slipping.

I have even traced a minor overuse injury that sometimes
happened to using the front of the foot too much in the downward kick.


The toe-pressure secret is a nice trick for special situations, but I don't
think it should be a normal part of classic striding technique on gentle
terrain. I could see how that could cause an over-use injury (especially if
you're not an eliter racer who trained toe-press all summer long).

The temptation to use it all the time would be a signal to take a look at
ski fit or waxing, or need to spend some time on the basic balance-one-ski
exercises.

Ken


 




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