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help! I'm abusing my quads!



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 9th 05, 09:45 PM
Monique Y. Mudama
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Default help! I'm abusing my quads!

After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning and they're weak
enough that I worry about being able to make turns well. Friends tell me that
my thighs really shouldn't be working *that* hard. I'm told to learn to do
things like "let the boot support your weight," but even standing still on
skis, I can't seem to get into a position where my thighs aren't working to
keep myself upright.

I suspect that I'm fighting my skis, using too much force and not enough
finesse. Any specific suggestions/drills to learn how to make it easier on my
legs? It sucks when everyone else is still raring to go and you're not.
Especially the morning of the second day. Waste of a lift ticket.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

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  #2  
Old January 9th 05, 11:35 PM
thinnmann
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Monique,
How long have you been skiing? What kind of terrain do you mostly ski?
At what altitude do you ski as opposed to where you live? What is the
current model and length of skis you are using? How many days of
skiing do you do per year? Do you workout in any way besides skiing?
What is your height, weight, age? Do you take any meds, smoke, or have
any other chronic physical conditions? It is difficult to give you any
advice without such info.

  #3  
Old January 9th 05, 11:49 PM
The Real Bev
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"Monique Y. Mudama" wrote:

After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning and they're weak
enough that I worry about being able to make turns well.


Me too, but the big muscles in the lower leg participate in the misery
too, and it hits way sooner.

Friends tell me that
my thighs really shouldn't be working *that* hard. I'm told to learn to do
things like "let the boot support your weight," but even standing still on
skis, I can't seem to get into a position where my thighs aren't working to
keep myself upright.


Neither can I. The standard advice is "get forward," which I believe to
be true. Unfortunately, getting far enough forward to consistently feel
my boot-tongues with my shins requires me to lean WAY forward, such that
I am seriously out of balance if something surprising happens. I am
told that I need softer boots, but since one pair of boots is rear-entry
which are traditionally soft, I don't think it's a hardware problem.

I suspect that I'm fighting my skis, using too much force and not enough
finesse. Any specific suggestions/drills to learn how to make it easier on my
legs? It sucks when everyone else is still raring to go and you're not.
Especially the morning of the second day. Waste of a lift ticket.


I find it's way easier and less tiring to go lots faster. It NEVER
hurts if I'm trying to catch up with somebody. The problem is that I
can only do this with minimal crowds, which happens just about never --
I have to ski as fast as I can while still being prepared to avoid the
erratically-moving slalom gates that cover the hill. BTW, is tomorrow
MLK Day, or the 17th? I made the mistake of going skiing on MLK Day
once. Worst crowds I'd ever seen. I guess people just don't know how to
celebrate properly.

I've tried shorter and longer skis, moving the bindings fore and aft,
and tightening and loosening several pairs of boots over the 10 years
I've been skiing. I feel certain that if I was willing to throw a
couple $thousand at the problem it could be solved, but I'm not that
sort of person :-(

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
"Calling someone an asshole for being rude to a telemarketer
is like accusing someone who's shot a burglar in his home
of being a poor host." -- W.S.Rowell

  #4  
Old January 10th 05, 12:10 AM
Monique Y. Mudama
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On 2005-01-09, thinnmann penned:
Monique, How long have you been skiing? What kind of terrain do you mostly
ski? At what altitude do you ski as opposed to where you live? What is the
current model and length of skis you are using? How many days of skiing do
you do per year? Do you workout in any way besides skiing? What is your
height, weight, age? Do you take any meds, smoke, or have any other chronic
physical conditions? It is difficult to give you any advice without such
info.


Okee doke. I've mentioned all of this in my various posts to the group, but
I'll reiterate as it's handy to have all the info in one place.

I'm 27 and have been skiing on and off since I was 16. I live in
Colorado and ski mostly A-Basin, some Vail, Beaver Creek, etc, so I live
at around 5k feet and ski from 10-13k feet of altitude. Before I moved
here, I lived in VA and skied wherever I could. I still have trouble
with powder, but can handle pretty much anything else and have skied
double black moguls. Typical days would be packed powder or maybe some
fluff, some groomers, lots of moguls, maybe some widely spaced trees.
Pretty much anything that looks interesting.

My skis are "intermediate" Elans, 160cm. I got them before last season and
have probably skied 25 days on them. I hadn't skied for 2-3 years and wanted
a cheap pair to get me back to my previous level. I've far exceeded that
since then. I am demo'ing skis in anticipation of buying skis more
appropriate to the terrain I'm skiing. No one at any ski shop has ever seen
them before, it seems. Just random crap skis, soft, around 65mm waist.

I probably skied about 20 days last year, 4 (badly) the year before that, none
the several years before. I play ice hockey once a week, practice striking
martial arts, and mountain bike during the warmer months. I'm supposed to be
doing PT to strengthen my inner thighs due to some kneecap tracking issues,
but I haven't done that in a while. I remember getting sore back when I used
to ski, in high school and college, but not nearly as sore as I get now, nor
as quickly. Of course, I was in much better shape then (weren't we all). I
was getting massively sore throughout last winter, as well.

5'5, probably 170 lb. No meds except BC, no smoke, have arthritic
knees, had a wrist problem most of last year, was sick a bunch between
mountain biking and ski season, so I lost a lot of my muscle.

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than
my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I
think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get
me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never
seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new
(salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

  #5  
Old January 10th 05, 12:50 AM
Monique Y. Mudama
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On 2005-01-10, Monique Y. Mudama penned:

I'm supposed to be doing PT to strengthen my inner thighs due to some
kneecap tracking issues, but I haven't done that in a while.


Forgot to mention that the entire width of my quad gets sore during skiing,
not just the inside.

--
monique
Longmont, CO

  #6  
Old January 10th 05, 01:10 AM
VtSkier
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The Real Bev wrote:
"Monique Y. Mudama" wrote:

After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning and they're weak
enough that I worry about being able to make turns well.



Me too, but the big muscles in the lower leg participate in the misery
too, and it hits way sooner.


IME(experience), calf muscles hurting has a lot to do with boots
being too tight, or not supporting your ankles well enough.


Friends tell me that
my thighs really shouldn't be working *that* hard. I'm told to learn to do
things like "let the boot support your weight," but even standing still on
skis, I can't seem to get into a position where my thighs aren't working to
keep myself upright.


Again my experience. My quads experience much the same as yours
early in the season. As time goes by it gets less and less. I
believe that this is due to two things. 1) condition/being in
shape. I don't do a lot to keep my quads/hamstrings in good
shape through the summer. The boots you bought (from an earlier
thread) should be stiff enough to hold you upright (at the
predetermined forward angle of the boot). And, actually maybe
your quads *should* be working that hard. 2) lightening up. As I
get miles under me, I'm less "on guard", less tense, more
flexible, or maybe not more flexible, but just more springy.

Here in the east we often have less than wonderful visibility.
Especially after 3:00PM, even on a relatively good day the
light gets flat. Add to that real snow falling or snow guns
spraying away. If I wasn't quite springy, especially in late
afternoon bumps, I'd be on my ass in no time. I call it skiing
in Braille. You can't see anything beyond general features, so
you have to feel where you are going. Being very "springy"
helps you stay upright.

I'm also good to myself when my condition from, say, having a
REALLY good day the day before makes me less than optimum. I
stop often, both in terms of laps and in terms of number of
turns before I stop and look up the hill as if I'm waiting for
someone (it's a good ploy).

Neither can I. The standard advice is "get forward," which I believe to
be true. Unfortunately, getting far enough forward to consistently feel
my boot-tongues with my shins requires me to lean WAY forward, such that
I am seriously out of balance if something surprising happens. I am
told that I need softer boots, but since one pair of boots is rear-entry
which are traditionally soft, I don't think it's a hardware problem.

Bev, since you are into doing this on the cheap, we used to reinforce
the tongues of our boots to limit forward lean by stiffening it
in some way. Remember Raichle Flexons? You could actually buy stiffer
tongues than the ones that came on the boots. Some people actually
cut soup cans to fit over the boot tongue to give it more stiffness
(yeah, really). Yes, I know you are still using rear entry boots. May
they explode and give you cause to buy something more modern (at a
yard sale, of course).

Softer boots are being touted for modern carving skis. They will
"encourage" you to find a neutral stance which isn't pressuring
the boot very much at all. My AT boots are soft enough to fall
into this category. My Fischer MountainX skis work very well with
these boots, but my Volkl 6stars don't do very well at all. To
do the things the 6stars are good at, I need to change the pressure
from fore to centered to back (occasionally) with some authority.

BTW, the softer boots I've seen are a frame for support with rest
of the shell made of softer materials more for fix and comfort
than for skiing flexibility. In fact most of the soft boots
are aimed at intermediate skiers. A few, the high end Kneissl
"Rail" ski boots have forward flex adjustment, just like high
end Technicas. Kneissl boots are not longer made or at least
no longer imported.

Yes, I know, these are "carving skis" and should react OK with
the soft boots, but they don't really do very well when I get
into stuff that's iffy, but work beautifully with my alpine boots.

I suspect that I'm fighting my skis, using too much force and not enough
finesse. Any specific suggestions/drills to learn how to make it easier on my
legs? It sucks when everyone else is still raring to go and you're not.
Especially the morning of the second day. Waste of a lift ticket.


I think I remember that your husband "lurves" bumps and you are
trying to keep up with him. You might try a bump clinic sometime,
not a general lesson, a bump specific lesson. You might also rent
a pair of low-level (plain vanilla rentals) sometime to ski in
bumps. They are often softer and more forgiving than the high
performance boards that most of us own. You will get some idea
of what bump-specific skis would be like from this exercise.

I find it's way easier and less tiring to go lots faster. It NEVER
hurts if I'm trying to catch up with somebody. The problem is that I
can only do this with minimal crowds, which happens just about never --
I have to ski as fast as I can while still being prepared to avoid the
erratically-moving slalom gates that cover the hill. BTW, is tomorrow
MLK Day, or the 17th? I made the mistake of going skiing on MLK Day
once. Worst crowds I'd ever seen. I guess people just don't know how to
celebrate properly.


There were so many people on some parts of my section of the
area yesterday at certain times that I actually got
spooked. At one wide place where several trails merge
(appropriately called the mixing bowl) I stopped and looked
up to see several hundred people skiing down at varying
levels of skill, all between 10 and 20 feet apart. REALLY
spooky.

I've tried shorter and longer skis, moving the bindings fore and aft,
and tightening and loosening several pairs of boots over the 10 years
I've been skiing. I feel certain that if I was willing to throw a
couple $thousand at the problem it could be solved, but I'm not that
sort of person :-(

For a given ski, any woman should mount the toepiece from
one to two centimeters further forward than a man would
on the same ski. This does not apply to women specific
skis because the manufacturer has already taken this
need into his placing the boot center mark on the skis.

Simply shorter or longer skis is not necessarily the
answer. Ski the ski in the size the manufacturer recommends
for your height/weight/aggressiveness. Or go to the next
size shorter if you don't ski at 40MPH all the time.

Bev, shaped skis are beginning to come on the market very
cheap. Especially used rental equipment (be careful here
because condition might be REALLY bad). Some rental
equipment has the kind of bindings that allow the toe
piece to be moved fore and aft. Go short with shaped skis.
For most women in the intermediate/advanced skill level
150 to 160 cm is enough. A really small woman should go
smaller. My 6stars are 165cm. My friend the instructor
is using 150cm 6stars. She's 5'-7" or so and about
135 pounds and a damn fine skier. Her husband, also
an instructor, is about 5'5 and 50# heavier and hates
her 6stars for various reasons.

  #7  
Old January 10th 05, 01:17 AM
thinnmann
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Monique,
This is a moderated group and I am really not trying to sound rude, but
if you really live that high and you really ski that much and you
really mountain bike off season and play ice hockey, the quad suffering
really isn't adding up, except for the 5'5" 170 lb part. If you do a
BMI on that it is pretty poor. Try it here
http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm
and you get a 28.3 which is on the high side of overweight. What I
believe is happening isyYour quads are doing an inordinate amount of
eccentric contractions to support your weight on your small frame
during a day of skiing, even if said weight is solid muscle.
In my humble and honest opinion, you have two choices: lose some pounds
through diet and more aerobic conditioning or add lots of weight quad
presses emphasizing the eccentric part to develop your quads. If you
lose the pounds, your quads will respond with better performance. If
you lift weights, your quads will also respond.
Choice 1 - You need to begin to closely mointor your caloric intake. I
suggest using a tool like the software available at
http://calorieking.com
Forget about fad dieting, because you need lots of carbs to support a
hard day of skiing. Reading a book like Chris Charmichael's Food For
Fitness would add to your success.
Combine this with a walking and running program. You should see an
improvement in a month or so if you stick to this type of program.
Choice 2- Get yourself a squat machine or go to the gym. Do sets of
low high reps, low weights, and don't go past a 90 degree angle at your
knees. Do the eccentric part (when you let the weight down) slower
than the concentric part (when you push the weight out). Make it a 3
to 1 ratio.
Choice 3, which I just thought of, is do both Choice 1 and Choice 2 for
a few weeks.

Unfortunately, you should have been doing this, minimally, June -
September... You will be playing catch-up now that the season is in
full swing.

I have seen lots of athletes blame their equipment and spend lots of
money on new stuff when they would get better results through simply
improving their conditioning and losing some pounds. Fortunately,
these things usually go hand-in-hand.

Certainly, continue to demo stuff and make sure you are committing to
proper pressuring a pair of nicely shaped edges so that they do most of
the work for you. The fitness component will make you even more of a
star.

Good luck!

  #8  
Old January 10th 05, 01:25 AM
VtSkier
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
(snip)

Honestly, I believe that all of the above is probably of less importance than
my skiing technique. I tend to "haul" on the skis to force them to turn; I
think I'm fighting the mountain. When instructors, friends, etc, try to get
me to feel the point where my boots are providing all of my support, I never
seem to find it, whether on my old boots (salomon evolution) or my new
(salomon women's xwave 8). It *always* seems like my quads are involved.

So, I'll add a couple of things to my previous post.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being in the
back seat.

Sore quads as you describe is *often* a sign of being a little
dehydrated.

Feeling like you are "hauling" on the skis or "fighting the
mountain" is often a sign of being in the backseat.

Has anyone shown you drills for getting your hands forward?

If you can't see your hands you are probably in the back seat.

Do your hands move excessively? When you "crank" a turn, does
one of your hands move behind you? Both hands should be visible
all the time and movement is mostly from the wrist, ticking
the pole on the snow as a timing move. Nothing more. Of course
when you are horsing around, other things happen.

VtSkier

  #9  
Old January 10th 05, 01:29 AM
lal_truckee
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Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning


Back seat ...

  #10  
Old January 10th 05, 01:41 AM
VtSkier
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lal_truckee wrote:
Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

After (half) a day of skiing, my quads are always burning



Back seat ...

I couldn't have said it more succinctly myself,
in fact I didn't.
VtSkier

 




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