Carving Technique

My big breakthrough only came with private lessons.
Of course, it has to be with the right instructor - I've wasted lots of
money on poor ones!

"Nick Hounsome" wrote in message
k...

Don't worry about private - group lessons will be fine.

"Tuck Thong" wrote in message
...

Paul Wrote:
"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...-
I'm having a lot of problems learning how to carve. I know that it's
quite-
a-
complicated exercise so I'm not going to ask exactly how it's done.-
Indeed,-
I've covered the basics at my ski class (just finishing a 12 week
block of
lessons). I'd be very grateful if someone could answer the following-
questions:-

1. I've been told to move forward diagonally. My instructor said that
this-
was-
in order to make the ski bend. I understand this principle but I
don't-
know how-
to implement it.

- When I move my waist (to set the edges), do I move diagonally
forward in-
the-
opposite direction??
I understand that I've got to make a 'C' shape with my body (if
turning-
left)-
so that my edges can be set without losing my balance but I don't know
how-
to-
develop that further.

I know that I've got to work on making the turns smoother (by pushing
down-
on-
the inside leg to start the next turn) and to be aware of my knees etc
too-
but-
the forward motion is confusing me.

My instructor gave me two exercises to do - one involved throwing my
arms
forward diagonally and the other involved making a double pole-plant
in-
front-
of my skis (to ensure that my weight was forward). Nonetheless,
without-
knowing-
exactly WHERE and WHEN to throw my weight, I wasn't able to benefit
from-
the-
exercise.

2. How does the forward (+ diagonal) motion affect my skis? For
example,-
when-
I'm skiing parallel, I try to flex the 'outside' boot. When carving,
am I-
still-
trying to do this? Am I try to flex both boots (since the edge of the
ski-
will-
make the turn). Alternatively, should I just been rolling my weight
from-
one-
ski to the other without 'flexing' the boots at all?

Sorry to be a bit pedantic. I've only got 1 lesson left so am really-
trying to-
get this right!! Thanks in advance for any help

Niall-


I read every post in the thread so far and there are some good tips in
there
but I didn't see anything relating to Teaching vs. learning. Let me
explain.... I never got taught to ski really, I had to learn
everything
myself. My only teaching consisted of a friend explaining how the
snowplough
worked.... after a bit of trial and error I got it. Then I 'learned'
how to
ski by watching what others were doing and then having a go myself
until I
finally got it.

I really progressed my skiing by watching warren miller type ski films,
I
would watch them over and over and really watch and try to work out
what
movements were required to ski. The slow motion really shows you how to
do a
certain technique. What I would also do is imagine myself skiing, over
and
over I would replay it in my head what I needed to do (now you have to
know
what to do in the first place). If I had a good turn or did a good set
of
moguls I would remember it and think about it on the lift back up and
then
try to do it right away.

Niall, From what you have wrote in your post it sounds like you are
not
looking towards the final result that you want (carved turn) and then
'learning' from what you are currently doing wrong. Are you trying to
concentrate on position of your body and these little excercises too
much???
Have you actually watched a good skiier do some carved turns??? and can
you
replay in your mind what those turns look like in slow motion? Can you
imagine yourself doing these turns?

Have you ever watched a downhill skiier preparing for the race? you
will see
them with their eyes closed and they use their hands to simulate the
ski
positions as they are playing the turns of the course in their mind.


Does anybody else use this type of learning? or have I completly lost
it??????

Paul
PS - Disclaimer: I am not a ski instructor and I may be mad.... this
might
be a load of gibberish, it worked for me though!

I agree totally.

I had my last lesson about 10 years ago and since then my technique for
learning has been exactly the same as yours: mentally dissecting my
technique and the technique of 'expert' skiers (usually gained from
books and vids) in my mind. I do this on the Tube on the way to work,
on the chairlift , in the bath in the chalet etc. Then I endeavour to
apply this when I ski and often find that I'm 75% of the way as soon as
my skis touch the snow. I have to say that my progress over this period
of time has been faster than many of my friends who have religiously
followed a programme of formal instruction.

However I do feel that the time has come where I would benefit from
someone else have a look at how I'm skiing and give me some tips for
improvement. So I would definitely have lessons at some point in the
future, though I reckon that I've saved thousands of pounds over the
past decade on lessons that are not always that helpful.


--
Tuck Thong

A friend of mine who is a good skiier booked himself on a lesson for a half
day and the instructor let him ski a run or two, this led to the instructor
leaning down to his boots and adjusting them, he looks up at my friend and
announces that this is the first lesson he has tightened his boots for and
then proceeded to take him on some really challenging off piste. When my
friend returned he said all the instructor did was have him watch what he
did and 'do the same', the instructor did a little at a time first of all
and then once the instructor was happy they let it rip. My friend came back
from that and his skiing was lots better.

If you're doing a significant pole plant you're not carving the middle
of the turn. Instead you are probably unweighting the ski and then
sliding it, or jumping it around.

I think that is a point which many beginners and some instructors miss!
Carving is all about not losing speed, whereas most recreational skiers
want to scrub off some speed to avoid travelling too fast. Most
beginners and recreational skiers want to minimise the time spent
heading downhill and maximise the amount of time spent heading across
the hill. Carving is certainly not the way to achieve this.

Don't knock the snow-plough and assume it is only for beginners. It's an
excellent technique for some difficult circumstances. When out
ski-mountaineering, carrying a heavy rucksack, and encountering
difficult snow conditions and terrain, you'd be surprised how often you
make use of the snow-plough. The fun of skiing is to master lots of
different techniques and then to also master when to use them
appropriately.

Excellent advice from Mike, especially the last sentence.

My experience of instructors is that very few actually know what you need to
do in order to ski well. They are invariably superb skiers, but they simply
do not know what it is that they are doing - I went skiing with my boss a
few years ago, he lived in the French Alps from age 2 to 17, and he skied
feet together dead relaxed down owt as steep as you like - he could not tell
me how he skied, it was as natural as breathing to him.

From instructors I have culled a number of essentials (posture, shoulders
down the hill, weight transfer etc) - but most of all I discovered that foot
/ shin action is the essential bit that nobody seems to dwell on. I say
discovered because not one instructor told me it was particularly important.
But I know it as fact that when I am skiing badly it is because some aspect
of my posture etc is stopping me from edging / not edging my skis properly.
Let's face it, my ski edges do not give a toss what my shoulders or hips are
doing - they merely react to the forces on them - and the forces on them
come only from my feet / shins. I have also learnt that I ski best when I
relax and let my lower legs edge the skis - it is also less tiring than
using muscle power (such as sustained snow-ploughing).

Mike is dead right about speed - to carve you need speed. A while back I
skied the Number1 run at Mayrhofen first thing in the morning. There was not
a soul on the mountain and I wanted to show off to my daughter who was on
the chair lift, along with the morning throng. I flew down the run, carving
all the way - it was steep but very wide. Had there been people about then I
would have skiied it a lot more conservatively - skidded turns all the way I
guess. I see no shame in skidded turns, they offer total control - and being
(and looking) in control is the name of the game. I'm no boy-racer and I
know fine well that broken bones spoil the holiday as well as risk a life in
a wheelchair. So I take satisfaction from being able to ski to suit the
prevailing conditions, and not taking the **** out of my own capabilities.

Foot and shin action feature (I reckon) in all aspects of skiing - from
skidded turns through snow-plough to carving - and it makes sense 'cos it is
your feet that are strapped to the planks. Upper body (above the knees) has
no place in skiing - keep the upper body as a passenger, although the arms
(more specifically, the hands) are important for balance.

Despite all that I shall no doubt ski like a total **** for a day or so
until I get myself sorted out - I now look at it as all part of the
experience!

5 days to go and I'm skiing for 2 weeks, can't wait!

Roy

"NIALLBRUCE" wrote in message
...
Thanks to everyone for their input!!

I can't imagine the physics of carving perfectly in my mind however so it
gets
rather confusing.

Here's a simple exercise that may help you see how carvers work:
1. Make a paper ski out of a bit of A4 with an exagerated side cut (i.e. an
elongated figure 8 sort of shape)
2. Tip it onto its side so that the whole length of one edge is on the
table.
3. You will see that the paper has to bend into an arc to get the whole
length touching. If the edges dug in it would therefore run in a circle.

"Mike Clark" wrote in message
...
In article , Nick Hounsome
wrote:
[snip]
"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant
(or poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change. -
that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could actually be a problem?

The pole plant is brilliant for getting the body weight forward and
downhill - yes you side slip but for me - my biggest improvement step
ever came from forcing myself to reach forward and downhill to plant
a pole - from then on I found steeps held no fear for me. Ok it's not
the end of the road but as an intermediate step it helped me a lot.


But the point is that is not the same type of turn you are discussing.
A carving turn using the full radius of the ski does not require any
pole plant. You just need to tilt the skis on edge and ride the curve
they make in the snow. Your body then adjusts balance to counter the
centripetal force as you accelerate down hill. Carving is all about
changing direction whilst losing the minimum of speed. The best way to
learn this type of turn is on a very wide and not too steep a piste
which is also not very crowded. Start of facing down the slope and then
tilt both skis on edge, once you've started the turn just let your
natural sense of balance resist the forces. To initiate the next turn,
ride out the first turn until the point you are heading across the slope
and then tilt both skis onto the opposite edge. Its a turn that is much
easier once you are moving at a reasonable speed.

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to
shift my balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In
the case of turning left, am I correct in thinking that my right
shoulder should be lower - thus contradicting the traditional
pole-plant?

If you're doing a significant pole plant you're not carving the middle
of the turn. Instead you are probably unweighting the ski and then
sliding it, or jumping it around.

[snip]

Don't get hung up on carving - short swing turns (I think that's what
they're called - I'm not great on terminology) are where it's at. As a
beginner you will find that carving on anything other than the gentlest
of
slopes will quickly cause you to be travelling too fast and then what
are
you going to do?


I think that is a point which many beginners and some instructors miss!
Carving is all about not losing speed, whereas most recreational skiers
want to scrub off some speed to avoid travelling too fast. Most
beginners and recreational skiers want to minimise the time spent
heading downhill and maximise the amount of time spent heading across
the hill. Carving is certainly not the way to achieve this.


P.S. IMHO the shortness of dry slopes is the main reason that people
spend too much time picking up bad habits from snow-ploughing rather
than learning something useful.


Don't knock the snow-plough and assume it is only for beginners. It's an
excellent technique for some difficult circumstances. When out
ski-mountaineering, carrying a heavy rucksack, and encountering
difficult snow conditions and terrain, you'd be surprised how often you
make use of the snow-plough. The fun of skiing is to master lots of
different techniques and then to also master when to use them
appropriately.


Mike

well said, especially the maintaining speed issue, I have a problem with my
girlfriend, she is almost there with parallel turns but what happens is when
she gets to the point where her skiis are pointing downhill ---( and she
is just gaining speed, she gets into the turn and scrubbs off all her speed
(and momentum/force). That has the effect of when she cuts across the
mountain she is balanced above her skiis and the force from the previous
turn is not pushing her into the initiation of the next turn. Stem christie
then follows. I see a similar thing with people trying to carve, there is a
point in the turn where your weight needs to be moved and if you are trying
to control your speed you end up staying in the turn too long and you cannot
shift your weight easily.

Snow-plough has a bad name.... im not supprised as beginners spend so much
time getting away from it!!!!! but it is probably the most usefull thing you
need to know on skiis. One of the problems with progressing skiiers I think
is that they fail to select the correct style of skiing for the terrains and
conditions. I have a friend who will never progress.... he concentrates too
much on the technique and when he skiis he is like a robot, too stiff, never
relaxes and never strays from what he considers to be a perfect turn. In
reality though he struggles with differing terrain, whenever it gets too
steep/bumpy or differing snow conditions then he skiis like a plank. I have
tried to tell him but he dosen't really understand the value of using
various styles... he also never uses snow-plough!

Paul

Hi

When you want to make a carved turn pretend that
you must get your skis on edge so that people watching
you can read the brand name on the base of your ski
e.g.:if you want to make a left carved turn, turn so that
your right knee is almost touching the top of your left
boot and vise versa for a right turn. You have to be
confident at speed for this to work and if you are going
tooslow you will not carve.You can practise this knee
position on the floor at home with your skis and boots
on.

Good Luck

Peter

"Ace" wrote in message
...
On 14 Dec 2004 10:02:16 GMT, (NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

Thanks Ace! My instructor is called Mez - I think he's a good racer??
(don't
know if you've ever encountered him!).

No I haven't - it's not really very likely, is it?

My instructor said that the top racers keep their heads down and
straighten
diagonally forwards rather than upwards.

Racers have to analyse their stance, weight distribution etc. etc. in
minute detail to try and get the tiniest edge over their competitors.
Normal skiers don't need to, and unless you're going to make a career
of it, shouldn't.

I think that I really need to work on
this element because I've learnt (skiing parallel) how important balance
is to
skiing.

I think you should stop thinking about your body position and start
trying to feel what the ski is doing.

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change.

- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could
actually be a problem?

Only if/when you're trying to carve. Which is not something you can,
or should, be doing _all_ the time (although a certain Mr. Ross[1]
would argue otherwise).

e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift
my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of
turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower -
thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

No idea. For me, carving is something that happens from the hips
downwards. Sure, my upper body is probably in a certain position most
of the time I'm doing it, but it's not something I think about. And I
do think it's probably not helping you to concentrate on this area.

it's normally just about pushing down on the turning ski -
the body shope required for this should just happen

I really don't want to take this out of context but it would be great if
you
could clarify this idea further! I've found that i do lean too far back
during
turns (when trying to carve). I think that it's a comfort thing as I'm so
used
to 'skidding' on the dendex. In order to stop this bad habit, what should
I do?
Would it help if I thought about shifting my weight towards the tip of
the
'outside' ski??

It might, but that's really something only your instructor would be
able to comment on. If your weight's too far back then yes, you may
need something to focus on to enable you to get it forwards, and
thinking about shoulders might help, but IME it's mostly in the legs.

I actually struggled with this for years, being unable to keep my
weight forward - I finally solved it, not through body position or
anything, but from finding out that it takes an action of my
ankle/shin muscles to pull myself forwards, rather than what I'd been
trying to do for years, which was to put my body in such a place as to
push my weight forwards. This latter would work on occasion, but if
anything hapenned to upset the balance I'd be thrown backwards and
lose the plot completely.

The muscle action that I found was the same one you'd use to lift your
foot upwards and stretch the calf muscle. Which, when the foot is
fixed, will obviously move the shin forward instead. Then it['s a case
of keeping this muscle tensed all the time I'm skiing.

There's a number of other things which I have to work on e.g. keeping one
ski
slightly in front of the other (apparently affects the angles at your
waist),
and making sure that my inside ski keeps contact with the snow (another
bad
habit). I'm really struggling to learn on the dry slope though - it's
really
short - so am just trying to get everything in my mind right before I go
on the
holiday.

Relax, it will be a lot easier on real snow, and it shouldn't hurt so
much when you fall over either. Don't expect to be perfect from the
word go; I'm sure it'll come with practice.


[1] Ali Ross, BASI trainer who pioneered the 'carving' idea years
ahead of his time. He really does carve _everywhere_ and was doing so,
and teaching it to others, long before carving skis had been invented.
Nice guy, but a little narrow-minded, IMO.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the
Ski Club.

....snip loads...

"Carving", however, involves, almost by definition, no pole plant (or
poles) at all, and no dramatic weight-change.
- that's really interesting! Can I conclude that the 'old' pole-plant
could
actually be a problem?
e.g. When I'm trying to carve, I need to set my edges but have to shift my
balance the other way ('C' shape) in order to do that. In the case of
turning
left, am I correct in thinking that my right shoulder should be lower -
thus
contradicting the traditional pole-plant?

....snip loads more ...

When I was introduced to carving, the instructor taught us the simple
mechanics one afternoon on quite flat slopes. The next day we all went out
on blades. No poles to plant and in reality you can't do much else but carve
on blades - they tend to be a bit twitchy otherwise.
Especially useful were 2 exercises - the first involved reaching down and
touching the outside boot on the turn whilst not losing the edge - forces
classic C shape.
The second was to make a swift transition from one edge to the other by
putting your hands on your knees and pushing them quite quickly from one
side to the other.
The first exercise also works really well for skis, but you need to be more
gentle on the transition for the second exercise.

--
Paul Schofield

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

Felly sgrifennodd Roy :
Let's face it, my ski edges do not give a toss what my shoulders or hips are
doing - they merely react to the forces on them - and the forces on them
come only from my feet / shins. I have also learnt that I ski best when I
relax and let my lower legs edge the skis - it is also less tiring than
using muscle power (such as sustained snow-ploughing).

For side-to-side pressure on the edges, this is correct. However, for
fron-to-back control of pressure, you need to have your upper body
poised correctly. If you haven't, no matter what you try to do with your
feet or shins, you will not get the front-to-back pressure right. That's
all to do with centre of gravity.

Adrian
--
Adrian Shaw ais@
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais uk

In article , Roy
wrote:
[snip]
From instructors I have culled a number of essentials (posture,
shoulders down the hill, weight transfer etc) - but most of all I
discovered that foot / shin action is the essential bit that nobody
seems to dwell on. I say discovered because not one instructor told me
it was particularly important. But I know it as fact that when I am
skiing badly it is because some aspect of my posture etc is stopping
me from edging / not edging my skis properly. Let's face it, my ski
edges do not give a toss what my shoulders or hips are doing - they
merely react to the forces on them - and the forces on them come only
from my feet / shins. I have also learnt that I ski best when I relax
and let my lower legs edge the skis - it is also less tiring than
using muscle power (such as sustained snow-ploughing).


The other thing that has helped my skiing I think has been to alternate
between weeks spent on-piste skiing using downhill boots and bindings
and other weeks spent exclusively off-piste wearing touring boots.
Touring boots are much softer and it is more difficult to control the
skis using simply brute force and ignorance. Instead you have to be
better balanced, more relaxed, and more responsive. Wearing touring
boots you have to make the design of the skis do more of the work for
you. The tendency with learning with boots that are too stiff is that
you tend to apply weight too far forward or backwards and then to
overcompensate by throwing the weight the other way. This can be used
as a technique to force the skis around, but if you try to do that in
softer boots you simply fall over. Except when skiing fast
and aggressivly, e.g. in race mode, it is not necessary to push your
weight as far forward as many beginners seem to believe. As stated
above, being more relaxed and centred over the ski is much less tiring
and you can keep going at moderate pace all day long without getting too
tired.


Mike URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

"Mike Clark" wrote in message
The best way to
learn this type of turn is on a very wide and not too steep a piste
which is also not very crowded. Start of facing down the slope and then
tilt both skis on edge, once you've started the turn just let your
natural sense of balance resist the forces. To initiate the next turn,
ride out the first turn until the point you are heading across the slope
and then tilt both skis onto the opposite edge. Its a turn that is much
easier once you are moving at a reasonable speed.

I was going to comment on this thread, but as only an occational skier
thought it a little out of my deapth, however this was pretty much what I
was going to say.

Carving is not difficult, simply go down a slope with a very long radius
turn at speed and you will be carving by default. Get a nice long S shaped
curve and you've cracked it, just don't bottle out and don't skid the turns.
Start on mild slopes that you are willing to go straight on and do very
enlonged sine waves. Take it from there.
IMHO easier than parallel turns on slopes you struggle with, but your legs
take one hell of a lot of G force when hammering.