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#1
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French technique with harscheisen
A few weeks ago I started a different approach for climbing on skins with
harscheisen on firm snow. (For some reason most of my partners use the German word "harscheisen", though actually I like the French work "couteaux", and some English-speaking folks are happy saying "ski crampons" -- but my English-language proposal would be "cutters"). My old approach was to "edge" the ski into the firm snow -- angle my knee and tilt the ski into the slope. My new approach with harscheisen is to flatten the ski against the snow surface as much as possible, allow my knee to hang out down the slope. Seems to work pretty well for me -- I think this is why: * flattening the ski puts more climbing skin into firmer contact with the snow. * making the harscheisen "blade" penetrate the snow nearly perpendicular to the surface of the snow (instead of in the vertical line of gravity), enables the blade to penetrate deeper into the snow, and intersect a larger cross-section of snow -- which tends to provide a stronger support for the blade -- less danger of the snow shearing away and releasing the ski for a fall. * often the second harscheisen blade (downhill side) can also penetrate into the snow, which provides further support to keep the ski from shearing off into a fall. (I got this idea from the "French" approach to climbing ice in crampons, "flat-footing" instead of the more obvious front-pointing) * relaxing the knee outward down the slope helps "save" the specific edging muscles to be strong in situations where they're really needed. Seems like this flatter-ski approach is mostly for climbing with harscheisen. Sometimes I also also tried flattening the ski on firm snow without harscheisen on the ski. But this often was a bad idea, since the ski slipped down without enough edging. On the other hand I think it's also possible to over-edge without harscheisen -- and especially when combined with leaning the upper body into the slope -- can lead to sliding falls. Ken |
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#2
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Ken Roberts wrote:
A few weeks ago I started a different approach for climbing on skins with harscheisen on firm snow. Interesting post Ken, I will have to think about this next time I'm out. I was both cutting and cramponing on Saturday and it is true, on crampons you do flatten your feet to the slope when traversing which you don't do so much when skiing with couteaux as you want the edge grip too. |
#3
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In article , davidof wrote: Ken Roberts wrote: A few weeks ago I started a different approach for climbing on skins with harscheisen on firm snow. Interesting post Ken, I will have to think about this next time I'm out. I was both cutting and cramponing on Saturday and it is true, on crampons you do flatten your feet to the slope when traversing which you don't do so much when skiing with couteaux as you want the edge grip too. _ Most ski crampons are a lot more flexible than even aluminum boot crampons. They are designed to support a vertical load, not a lateral one. Ken's approach works until it doesn't and then fails badly when the crampon flexs out[1] and you have neither edge or crampon in place, your knee is at a odd angle and reweighting the ski is difficult. If you don't catch yourself with the upper unweighted ski, you're likely going for a ride. _ Personally, I think that the best stragety is to pretend that you don't have ski crampons on and just climb as you would without them. If things start to feel sketchy, then it's time to switch to regular crampons and carry the skis. _ Of course, the point at which the crampon flexes and pops out will vary greatly with design, materials and mounting method. However, of the two I've personally used ( Rainey superloop crampon and Silvretta 500 ) both did this eventually. In particular the aluminum Silvretta 500 crampon does this quite easily. Both of these mount to the binding rather than the ski, so you might get much better results with Petzl and BD[2] crampons that mount directly to the ski. _ The other problem is that most ski boots make any kind of French techinque with either boot or ski crampons fairly painful. _ Booker C. Bense [1] This most often happens when you have only the crampon in contact with the snow. [2] http://www.bdskigear.com/index_files/Page1362.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQnkXQGTWTAjn5N/lAQF0/QQAufK7C2eZr58VHwv7FagqXbEMr4RSXAkj AszlxufliTROVcaD0kpCJ29eKv9PoA2kyFR5lGtxOvpywHysty Fs7eLPM7uwOicX 8+BIltXJlj4bdkE4mA4lJe3grrDsXeWCapzUdPYrEAddB3L44i P7hCw8rx+IoLGF jaXVN8wScpE= =cle0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#4
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In article , Booker C. Bense bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.May.04.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: _ Most ski crampons are a lot more flexible than even aluminum boot crampons. They are designed to support a vertical load, not a lateral one. _ That's poorly phrased, what I really meant is that the ski crampon is designed to work with the ski on the snow and the crampon fully in the snow. If the load is focused on the end of the crampon rather than distributed along it's depth, most of them will flex badly. You are much better off having one side fully in the snow than two sides partly in the snow. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQnkZLWTWTAjn5N/lAQGi5gP+PkO9sUtGajSVQEWZGHI8PdUSh7SBlBKR GEizL4xJifE3oNDUVszmz0qmXKZmpXt+E9KZH6xH2XxGpI2tfi GadGwkX+w4z9+e G4Qsx19x7T64Dwza1HEqTG6iPJu1s4mUHxHvHCkqSs9/iItPKcYcd4wYUm14Nt8e vXqdPcyswEY= =uPKL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#5
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Booker C. Bense schrieb:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , Booker C. Bense bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.May.04.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: _ Most ski crampons are a lot more flexible than even aluminum boot crampons. They are designed to support a vertical load, not a lateral one. _ That's poorly phrased, what I really meant is that the ski crampon is designed to work with the ski on the snow and the crampon fully in the snow. If the load is focused on the end of the crampon rather than distributed along it's depth, most of them will flex badly. You are much better off having one side fully in the snow than two sides partly in the snow. Booker, may be i'm not getting here correctly something - We' re using ski crampons until you can ascend with skis. If it's getting too steep (i think that might be around something like 40° or so) one would put the skis on the rucksack in any case, even with fresh snow and deep powder. That can be hard, but ... And if, on the other hand, it is snow icey (we would say "ghiaccio vivo" i think in english blue ice would give an idea), the ski crampons won't work safely anymore, i'd reflect a little bit about how to do this faces after then with skis ... ;-)) Greetings, Ulrich |
#6
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In article , Uli Hausmann wrote: Booker, may be i'm not getting here correctly something - We' re using ski crampons until you can ascend with skis. If it's getting too steep (i think that might be around something like 40° or so) one would put the skis on the rucksack in any case, even with fresh snow and deep powder. That can be hard, but ... And if, on the other hand, it is snow icey (we would say "ghiaccio vivo" i think in english blue ice would give an idea), the ski crampons won't work safely anymore, i'd reflect a little bit about how to do this faces after then with skis ... ;-)) _ In the California Sierra, you often climb up when it's hard and icy and ski back down when it's soft. We call it the "magic hour". The snow goes from boilerplate crust to a foot of slush in a few hours once the sun comes up. Timing is pretty important to getting in a safe and fun day of skiing, so you need to climb early when it's still hard. If you hit it just right Sierra corn can be the next best thing to powder skiing... If you get it wrong it's a glop filled leg busting sufferfest through a foot or more of wet cement. _ Since I'm old and slow I tend to climb at an angle a lot and ski crampons help quite a bit in traversing across steeper slopes. Also, skins don't always grip as well as you would like on the hard stuff. Depending on the terrain, I'll often ditch the skins and ski crampons altogether and just put the skis on the pack and use aluminum boot crampons. At 5 am the crust will be so hard that you have to stomp the crampon points in, by 2pm or so you'll sink in well over your boot tops. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQnp0VWTWTAjn5N/lAQFQ8QP/UoiDAMQmQY5mmBT8bBWNCIz7Irdt2rBt A+9NeIqQ3M0+YhNrPuRSQ4ioUV0+g8rEZbvPXxZmfZy2kTeBOU PTdrZyxmiq+hZz NiJCV5FVkk1jQK5FOhLzIEhm1EFb0A+DYZk6fyzU2V64GzX4Ot 4cHXhhvfyoS4tf slEyRX55+Aw= =G8rE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#7
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Booker C. Bense schrieb:
_ In the California Sierra, you often climb up when it's hard and icy and ski back down when it's soft. We call it the "magic hour". The snow goes from boilerplate crust to a foot of slush in a few hours once the sun comes up. Timing is pretty important to getting in a safe and fun day of skiing, so you need to climb early when it's still hard. If you hit it just right Sierra corn can be the next best thing to powder skiing... If you get it wrong it's a glop filled leg busting sufferfest through a foot or more of wet cement. That sounds to me a little bit like our south (or southwest/southeast) face skiing in spring. It's correct, that in the morning early the snow can be so hard, going up sometimes might be more similar to ice-climbing (although, obviously, not as steep). But, more spring is going on, more you tend to do the northfaces and there, the difference is not that much extreme. It's easy you find (save exceptionell summers like 2003) powder or at least soft snow over 2.500 m up to middle of June or so - at least in gullies and similar. My problem, as mentioned several times, is mostly related to telemark: I'm addicted to, although i'm aware it's less efficient than alpine randonee (but for health of my knees - and for intrinsecal pleasure - i'm exclusively free heel now). But with tele, you (me) cannot risk with hard or blue-ice snow. So, if it's too hard *AND* really steep with kind of no-fall sections, i renounce ... :-)) _ Since I'm old and slow I tend to climb at an angle a lot and ski crampons help quite a bit in traversing across steeper slopes. Also, skins don't always grip as well as you would like on the hard stuff. Depending on the terrain, I'll often ditch the skins and ski crampons altogether and just put the skis on the pack and use aluminum boot crampons. At 5 am the crust will be so hard that you have to stomp the crampon points in, by 2pm or so you'll sink in well over your boot tops. Probably, i'm even older than you and therefore, i see the use of the crampons more or less in the same way. But, to change within a tour to boot crampons i try to avoid for the hassle (i'm using old Salewas with bends, because they're working well with teleboots) :-)) Greetings (and still nice touring), Ulrich |
#8
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Thanks for the detailed analysis, Booker.
You are much better off having one side fully in the snow than two sides partly in the snow. That makes sense to me, if by "fully" is meant "as fully as possible given the current position of the heel elevator". But there is a third option: One side as fully into the snow given the current heel-elevator position, and the other side partially into the snow. And it's the third option that I've been experiencing most of the time when I've tried flattening my foot. Actually I would suspect that some harscheisen are designed to be used without full penetration into the snow -- because like for the Fritschi Diamir binding, the harscheisen points simply do not penetrate into the snow much like "fully" when I use them in a typical 3rd-position elevated-heel (which is lower than the 4th-position elevated-heel for the binding, where the percentage of snow-penetration is a long way from "fully"). As far as I can tell in my usage, the only way to get "full penetration" would be in the lowest 1st-position (no heel elevation). But most people I've watched use the Diamir harscheisen in that heel-elevation position only rarely. But perhaps a real expert on the Fritschi / Diamir binding will correct me on this. Ken _______________________________________ Booker C. Bense wrote . . . what I really meant is that the ski crampon is designed to work with the ski on the snow and the crampon fully in the snow. If the load is focused on the end of the crampon rather than distributed along it's depth, most of them will flex badly. You are much better off having one side fully in the snow than two sides partly in the snow. |
#9
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Booker Bense wrote
Ken's approach works until it doesn't and then fails badly when the crampon flexs out[1] and you have neither edge or crampon in place, your knee is at a odd angle and reweighting the ski is difficult. I have not used the models of harscheisen / couteaux / ski crampons that Booker cited for possible problems, but I'm glad he warned about it. So far I've tried this "flattening" approach only with the Fritschi Diamir binding with its harscheisen, and I have not yet encountered this problem of "flexing out". (Maybe that's because the Fritschi harscheisen are made of steel? Most experienced people I know are giving up on aluminum and switching to steel for the parts that you really must be able to count on to bite into hard snow/ice. The general comment is that aluminum points and edges are good, until you really need to depend on them. I noticed this spring that several serious mountaineering shops are no longer stocking "light skiing" ice axes with aluminum heads -- instead their lighest axes have aluminum shafts and steel heads). Anyway, I'm not saying that "flattening" is the "right" way to do it all the time -- just that it's an approach that could help in some situations. most ski boots make any kind of French techinque with either boot or ski crampons fairly painful. OK, how about let's call it "semi-French" -- I rarely if ever get the fullest possible penetration with the downhill harscheisen blades. I use Scarpa Laser boots a lot, and I loosen up most of the buckles and power-strap when I'm climbing, and I definitely do not find this "semi-French" approach to be painful. (but maybe I just have more flexible knees and hips than some people?) I think that the best stragety is to pretend that you don't have ski crampons on and just climb as you would without them. But I definitely think the better strategy is to climb differently with harschiesen. Here's why: On hard snow there's a tricky optimization trade-off in the choice of ski-edging angle: between getting the metal of the edge to bite into the snow, and getting the friction of the edge of the skin to grip on the snow surface. (and with the shaped skins, there's a prior trade-off in how close to the ski edge to cut the skin to fit the ski base). Putting harscheisen on the ski gives lots of help with the edge-bite side of the problem, but very little help to the skin-grip side. Therefore the optimal ski-edging angle must be different. Also there's the mechanics of crampon-point/snow-shearing interaction -- where clearly planting the crampon-point perpendicular to the snow surface is stronger against snow-shearing than planting the crampon-point vertically -- which is the key point of why "edging" is a dangerously bad idea with ice-crampons. This has nothing to do with how many points you get into the snow: it's about the mechanics of perpendicular versus vertical angle with the exactly the same crampon points. Ken ___________________________________________ "Booker C. Bense" bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.May.04.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote in message ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article , davidof wrote: Ken Roberts wrote: A few weeks ago I started a different approach for climbing on skins with harscheisen on firm snow. Interesting post Ken, I will have to think about this next time I'm out. I was both cutting and cramponing on Saturday and it is true, on crampons you do flatten your feet to the slope when traversing which you don't do so much when skiing with couteaux as you want the edge grip too. _ Most ski crampons are a lot more flexible than even aluminum boot crampons. They are designed to support a vertical load, not a lateral one. Ken's approach works until it doesn't and then fails badly when the crampon flexs out[1] and you have neither edge or crampon in place, your knee is at a odd angle and reweighting the ski is difficult. If you don't catch yourself with the upper unweighted ski, you're likely going for a ride. _ Personally, I think that the best stragety is to pretend that you don't have ski crampons on and just climb as you would without them. If things start to feel sketchy, then it's time to switch to regular crampons and carry the skis. _ Of course, the point at which the crampon flexes and pops out will vary greatly with design, materials and mounting method. However, of the two I've personally used ( Rainey superloop crampon and Silvretta 500 ) both did this eventually. In particular the aluminum Silvretta 500 crampon does this quite easily. Both of these mount to the binding rather than the ski, so you might get much better results with Petzl and BD[2] crampons that mount directly to the ski. _ The other problem is that most ski boots make any kind of French techinque with either boot or ski crampons fairly painful. _ Booker C. Bense [1] This most often happens when you have only the crampon in contact with the snow. [2] http://www.bdskigear.com/index_files/Page1362.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQnkXQGTWTAjn5N/lAQF0/QQAufK7C2eZr58VHwv7FagqXbEMr4RSXAkj AszlxufliTROVcaD0kpCJ29eKv9PoA2kyFR5lGtxOvpywHysty Fs7eLPM7uwOicX 8+BIltXJlj4bdkE4mA4lJe3grrDsXeWCapzUdPYrEAddB3L44i P7hCw8rx+IoLGF jaXVN8wScpE= =cle0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#10
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Uli Hausmann wrote:
We' re using ski crampons until you can ascend with skis. If it's getting too steep (i think that might be around something like 40° If you are using Dynafit Bindings be careful above 35° slopes as the extre stress on the plastic binding plate can break it... I agree with Uli, normally at this kind of angle I'm putting my skis on my back and walking, either with boots or crampons. |
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