Jacket Advice?

On 21 Oct 2004 08:56:18 -0700, (BrightonBanker)
wrote:

snip

While I agree with most of your comments about Gore-Tex, I felt I must
pick you up on this one:

Gore-tex is truly waterPROOF'- you will not get wet whatever
happens.

Well no, this is not strictly true. 'Waterproof/breathable' membranes
are generally measured on the pressure of water they'll withstand for
a given amount of time, plus the amount of water vapour they can
transmit when dry. I'd agree that Gore-Tex (particularly the newer
XCR) is the best out there, overall (although I don't have the
figures) but even this will let water through in some conditions.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.

Ace wrote in message . ..
On 21 Oct 2004 08:56:18 -0700, (BrightonBanker)
wrote:

snip

While I agree with most of your comments about Gore-Tex, I felt I must
pick you up on this one:

Gore-tex is truly waterPROOF'- you will not get wet whatever
happens.

Well no, this is not strictly true. 'Waterproof/breathable' membranes
are generally measured on the pressure of water they'll withstand for
a given amount of time, plus the amount of water vapour they can
transmit when dry. I'd agree that Gore-Tex (particularly the newer
XCR) is the best out there, overall (although I don't have the
figures) but even this will let water through in some conditions.


I take on board everything you say and am aware of the physics
surrounding the design of Gore-Tex - I was simply telling it how it is
from my own experiences - after skiing in Gore-Tex for 10+ years -I've
never got wet - ever... But I did when I wore Nevica - I can say no
more than that..

(NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

I'm going on a skiing holiday this coming winter with a few friends and would
like to buy some equipment. However, I'm definately not an expert and would
greatly appreciate some advice!


1. I'm going with 2 girls. Neither has any skiing equipment but I have an old
nevica all-in-one suit that fits one of them perfectly.

a) Should the nevica jacket be used or are the £40-£50 jackets in the shops
just as good / better? I understand that it's definately not in vogue but
surely the nevica's still a technically good jacket? It also saves money on
salopettes! How does it compare with the relatively cheap options currently
available? It's not too bright (just has some bright rectangles in random
locations!)

b) One of the girls, at least, has to buy completely new ski-wear. They're both
beginners but I think that they will start skiing as a hobby once we've
returned from holiday. What are the 'cheap' jackets like? The label says that
they're breathable but are they really suitable for skiing? Do they constitute
a good buy or are the more expensive models a better investment?


Women use a completely different set of criteria to purchase their
clothing. There is no point asking questions of other people. They
have to buy what they have to buy. Do not bother trying to figure it
out.


c) Are there any shops / brands that we should look out for? I was very
impressed with the sale in nevisport last year. Unfortunately, we're going
before the sales this season so will have to suffer the full cost of clothing.
Makro has some cheap jackets - again, I don't know what they're like. I really
just want to know whether the cheaper alternatives are up to the job! We're
going to Courmayeur (high-resort) in January so I think that it will be quite
cold.



I'm also looking for a new jacket. Unlike the girls, I am likely to use mine as
an all-purpose jacket. I'd like something that looks good in the pub but is
also technically capable. I've done some research in a few shops, and on the
net, but would really like to know what is and what's not good.

a) Is the new gore-tex stretch material worth the extra money? There's a few
jackets in my local store with this technology but they're quite expensive
(£270?).


Buy something you feel is giving you your money's worth. Gore-tex is
better than no Gore-tex.


b) I liked the North Face jacket in the shop but the sales assistant said that
'Cold Mountain' was a better brand. I didn't know whether or not to believe
him. Is it possible to distinguish brands as being good or bad? It was a North
Face summit series - apparently this is their best jacket??


Sales-vermin = Vermin.


c) Are the very expensive jackets (one was called ArcTeryx) worth the expense?
They didn't necessarily have the best technology but online reviews suggest
that they're still the favoured option. I'm really confused!!


Some rather attractive and useful designs but way over-priced.



I really don't know how to advise the girls (and am really stuck myself).


Wimmin attach great weight and moment to all manner of factors
invisible to science and so there is no point trying to work it out
for them. Just leave them to it.


Any
advice on this area would be greatly appreciated! In particular, if there's a
website or shop that has some good deals etc, I'd love to know!!


Try:

http://www.google.de/groups?q=funkra...co.uk &rnum=2

http://tinyurl.com/3tfhq


In short:

There are two types of ski clothing:

1) The ordinary breathable synthetic fabrics

2) Goretex (/substitute)


Synthetic fabrics are just another fabric. The weave lets out
perspiration and admits rain/water. You can limit the amount of water
coming in by spraying the exterior with a hydrophobic substance which
makes the water drops run off more quickly giving them less time to
soak through.

Synthetic fabrics are better than natural fabrics because they do not
absorb perspiration.

The Goretex breathable membrane is one of those great leaps forward.
It lets out perspiration but repels water.


So:

Any synthetic outdoor clothing will do. 'Ski clothing' might well
feature some minor adaptations to make you more comfortable or to be
more convenient in use.

Goretex just makes it all better.

With respect to weather: The only consideration is falling over. If it
starts snowing, it will be cloudy, possibly low cloud, and novices
(and the wise) will generally have to put into port because you
cannot see properly. Skiing in very bad visibility brings a strong
likelihood of injury.

It does not rain very often and the above applies with respect to
visibility.



Now the Economics:

In the absence of a budget, buy Goretex. When you are learning to ski,
you fall over a lot and you might get a little damp.

In the presence of a budget: Buy Goretex gloves, the best you can
afford. Your hands will get wet and cold and then very uncomfortable.
The rest of the budget, spend on ordinary ski clothing.

Remember, you have to purchase the trousers as well. No point buying a
good jacket and worthless trousers.

Do not expect to find good Goretex gloves just waiting there in a
ski-shop. Best method would be to shop on the internet.


When considering different jackets within the non-Goretex or the
Goretex bracket, do not be drawn by spurious considerations and
especially do not listen to sales-vermin. For instance: The weight of
the jacket is not a consideration (except in high-altitude
mountaineering).


When dealing with sales-vermin. Have a couple of questions to which
you already know the answer to. Ask the questions of the sales-vermin
and you will know if they are just out to sell you anything or if they
are interested in giving you what you need. The questioning needs to
be something like:

Sales-vermin [Holds up last garment in the shop, a short-sleeved
Hawaiian shirt]: "This is just what you need for skiing in January !"

Victim: "But is it as waterproof as the Alpen-Wunder Inc. '9000m'
wonder jacket ?"

Sales-vermin "Yes ! And a lot more breathable !"

Victim: "Hmmm... OK"


Factors I would consider: Whether you like the jacket or not.

For the quantity of money some manufacturers ask, you want to have
something you can enjoy posing in a bar with and which will impress
ignoramii.


Guide's clothing: Do not take the fact that a guide is wearing a
particular marque of clothing as sign that it is worth purchasing.
Guides are given their clothing by manufacturers because manufacturers
think this is a good way of advertising their wares.



In summary: Buy a decent pair of Goretex gloves.

With non-Goretex synthetic ski-wear, spray the butt, knees, elbows and
shoulders with water repellant.

Lady Chatterly f wrote:
f wrote:

(NIALLBRUCE) wrote:

I'm going on a skiing holiday this coming winter with a few friends and would
like to buy some equipment. However, I'm definately not an expert and would
greatly appreciate some advice!
[...]
Women use a completely different set of criteria to purchase their
clothing. There is no point asking questions of other people. They
have to buy what they have to buy. Do not bother trying to figure it
out.
[...]

My-O-my this bot thing is tiresome. Look - some mo

http://www.oism.org/oism/s32p686.htm