Wheel drop/ski direction problem

Hi,

My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the
stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is
considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left
rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole
ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the
left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless
I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my
left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of
stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting
my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could
actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits.
I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to
be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my
mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can
anybody share any thoughts?

Thanks,

Larry

Your story is why some of us (and others with far more knowledge)
suggest staying away from heavy rollerskis. They exaggerate existing
problems and force the skier to compensate to even get close to good
technique. The short answer is to get (or demo) something lighter, such
as the Marwe 610 or similar, and adjust your terrain accordingly. That
will allow you to see what's technique, what's muscular and what, if
anything, is anatomical, and develop from there. I've seen physically
and aerobically strong, experienced skiers go from lousy technique on
150s to looking like real skiers in a matter of minutes by making the
change, but have never seen anyone develop good technique on heavy
rollerskis.

rm

Larry wrote:

Hi,

My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the
stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is
considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left
rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole
ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the
left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless
I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my
left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of
stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting
my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could
actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits.
I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to
be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my
mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can
anybody share any thoughts?

Thanks,

Larry

I have the 150 SC, as tall-man's-skaters. Still very much in the infant
stages of getting to grips with them (walking pace at best).
I have a brake on one, which hangs worse.

The solutions seems to be a cleaverly placed elastic band from the top of
your boot to the rear axle area. You can fine-tune the preload and
progressiveness in various ways. I've also had some good experiments with a
road bike's innertube cut to strips.

My Crosskates also had a bit of hang, which I solved with thin elastic band
normally used for clothes. Due to my low mileage on the Aero's, no permanent
solution or ideal elastic band setup yet, but I'm getting new ideas as I'm
typing.

Quite frankly, I think the fact that hang exists is a very bad point for
Jenex. They're suppost to be the best company in this business, and their
brake design is just amazing. But they act like hang doesn't exist, and they
offer no solution when you buy a pair? They KNOW the hang is going to be
horrid.
Recently after a ski trip I forgot the elastic band when I met a friend for
a skate session. It was a non-session effectively. I ended up double some
pushups and situps while my friend did laps skating.

I found a tip to place a bolt in the Pilot binding to preload the spring
more. I doubt that will suffice, and I am a fan of the adjustability of
elastic bands. Once I have a good setup, I'll try to copy it with
weather-proof bands from an outdoor sports store or something.

Let us know how you progress,

J

"Larry" schreef in bericht
oups.com...
Hi,

My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the
stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is
considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left
rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole
ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the
left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless
I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my
left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of
stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting
my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could
actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits.
I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to
be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my
mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can
anybody share any thoughts?

Thanks,

Larry

Guys,

Thanks for your input. While I agree with your critisism of the Aeros,
I keep them for the same reason others do - those big soft wheels that
go on bad pavement and packed dirt. In my case, having to seek out and
drive to good pavement would probably eliminate most of my rollerski
time. And while I am concerned with technique to a certain extent, I
just don't get enough time on real snow to use it and obsess about it.
I've read about rubber bands here before and I guess I'll have to try
that. Jan, do you basically tie your heel to the binding or do you
allow for any play at all?

However, here is the weird thing that I was mainly writing about: the
hang looks to be about the same on both feet, but only the left ski
swings inward as the rear wheel hits. I switch skis mid-session, and
it is still the left one.

Hi, Larry

I skate on 150 combies too, and seem to have no technique problems you
are describing, and the problems described here, too :
http://www.nordicskiracer.com/cgi-bi...asp?NewsID=362 .
I mean, this part :

Sten had choice comments for the Jenex Aero 150. In short, he believed
the heavy weight of the 150 was a major cause of many skier's
technique problems. As we watched videos of our rollerskiing, most of
the many Aero 150 rollerskiers exhibited the tendency to pick up their
heal at the end of the push, turning the ski inward and forcing the
foot and ski to take a convoluted path back to the skate position.
This extra time threw off the timing of the skate moves.


I didn't notice anything said above, and seem to know why : my rear
wheels just hang only a little, when in the air, no more than my
winter ski. When I place my roller onto the ground, the first wheel
that touches it is the front one, or both at the same time.

Some physics :

What is the difference between the rollerskis and the skis? When you
mount the binding to ski, you place it so the center of gravity of the
ski coincides with the axle of the boot.That brings the moment of the
gravity force of the ski to near zero. When you mount the binding to
the rollerski, its center of gravity goes several cm behind the axle
of the boot, which creates a conciderable moment of the gravity force,
which makes the rear wheel to hang, when the rollerski is in the air.
The heavier are the rollerskis and the further is center of gravity
from then boot axle, the bigger is the moment of the force of gravity.
The conclusion is : you need something to compensate this additional
moment of the gravity force. Some (and me too) use pilot boots with
SNS bindings (me with classic flexors, because skate flexors are even
too stiff for pilot boots with my V2 Aero Combi. BTW, for V2 Aero 150
Skate one would probably need stiffer flexors, because they are
shorter and center of gravity goes furhter back agains boot axle).
Those who use pilot bindings with pilot boots have to stiffen the
spring of the binding, as is shown here
http://www.skiroll.it/tecnica/tips/a...acchiPilot.htm .
And before the pilot era they had been making special _rollerski_ (the
most stiffer) flexors for SNS bindings.

As for that article in Nordicskiracer, I believe those skiers were
using standard skate bindings with skate boots. And if your red
flexors in your NNN bindings are ones intended to use with skate skis,
not rollerskis, I am sure they are not stiff enough for rollerskis. I
do not know whether Rottefella makes special flexors for rollerskis,
but probably you could convert your standart flexors into stiffer
rollerski ones. Try to stick some layers of glue onto the front of
your flexors with a hot glue gun, until the flexors become stiff
enough, so that your rollerskis do not hang under your boots, or hang
just a little. These glue layers can be easely cut with a knife. This
method was originally suggested by one russian skier for reviving old
worn flexors, and I used it for that purpose.

Hope that helps.

On Apr 24, 8:24 am, "
wrote:
3. Sten Fjelheim, coach of Northern Michigan U., showed us avariation of this that they use. They drill a very small holecrosswise through the heel of the boot sole, and then pass a length ofstainless bike spoke through it, and form small loops or hooks on eachend. They then use a rubber band fastened to the loop on one side,passed under the ski shaft, and fastned to the loop on the otherside. His favorite roller ski, that he uses this on, is the Marwe610, by the way, proving that rear wheel hang isn't an issue justaffecting the Aeros.

After reading this I went out poleless on a pair of 610s and after
awhile I'm thinking, What rear wheel hang is this guy talking about?
Then I asked omeone with very direct knowledge of what Sten and the
NMU skiers are using, and they said, No, they're not doing what that
guy described on the newsgroup; they're using 610s just as they come.
Maybe for the 150s he'd use a special setup like that, but not with
the 610s. That's what I'm told. Since several years ago I used two
versions of the 150s and then 125s, I can also speak from experience
that these are not conducive to learning good technique or offering
anything close to the feeling of stability typical of lighter
rollerskis.

Gene

On Apr 26, 10:13 pm, genegold at highstream dot net
wrote:
On Apr 24, 8:24 am, "

wrote:
3. Sten Fjelheim, coach of Northern Michigan U., showed us avariation of this that they use. They drill a very small holecrosswise through the heel of the boot sole, and then pass a length ofstainless bike spoke through it, and form small loops or hooks on eachend. They then use a rubber band fastened to the loop on one side,passed under the ski shaft, and fastned to the loop on the otherside. His favorite roller ski, that he uses this on, is the Marwe610, by the way, proving that rear wheel hang isn't an issue justaffecting the Aeros.

After reading this I went out poleless on a pair of 610s and after
awhile I'm thinking, What rear wheel hang is this guy talking about?
Then I asked omeone with very direct knowledge of what Sten and the
NMU skiers are using, and they said, No, they're not doing what that
guy described on the newsgroup; they're using 610s just as they come.
Maybe for the 150s he'd use a special setup like that, but not with
the 610s. That's what I'm told. Since several years ago I used two
versions of the 150s and then 125s, I can also speak from experience
that these are not conducive to learning good technique or offering
anything close to the feeling of stability typical of lighter
rollerskis.

Gene

Dear Gene:

Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him
again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been
on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang
didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time
unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in
the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really
needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when
using the brake.

Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero
chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer,
lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which
the rivets failed one by one.

Randy

I'd also be interested hearing if the NMU team actually made the mod
you spoke of. I didn't see it in the photos of them rollerskiing and
presumably word of the mod would have gotten around the midwest. You
mentioned flexors. The change from SNS Profil to Pilot would
definitely affect results. Can Pilot bindings now be used successfully
on 150s without that ball bearing mod? Len Johnson recommended against
it some years ago. Which were you using on the 610s?

I'd suggest a longer test of the latter. I've seen this happen, where
in a short test an Aero 150 skier will initially replicate their
motions on 610s, raising the foot/leg much higher than necessary, and
thus inducing a tail hanging effect. Only when prodded to keep their
the skis as close to the ground as possible does it disappear. It'd be
nice to see some video of good technique on 150s. The only one I've
seen is of Lee Borowski's kid on one of the technique videos, and even
he was raising the skis fairly high.

rm

" wrote:

Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him
again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been
on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang
didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time
unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in
the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really
needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when
using the brake.

Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero
chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer,
lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which
the rivets failed one by one.

Randy

On Apr 27, 1:36 am, wrote:
I'd also be interested hearing if the NMU team actually made the mod
you spoke of. I didn't see it in the photos of them rollerskiing and
presumably word of the mod would have gotten around the midwest. You
mentioned flexors. The change from SNS Profil to Pilot would
definitely affect results. Can Pilot bindings now be used successfully
on 150s without that ball bearing mod? Len Johnson recommended against
it some years ago. Which were you using on the 610s?

I'd suggest a longer test of the latter. I've seen this happen, where
in a short test an Aero 150 skier will initially replicate their
motions on 610s, raising the foot/leg much higher than necessary, and
thus inducing a tail hanging effect. Only when prodded to keep their
the skis as close to the ground as possible does it disappear. It'd be
nice to see some video of good technique on 150s. The only one I've
seen is of Lee Borowski's kid on one of the technique videos, and even
he was raising the skis fairly high.

rm



" wrote:
Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him
again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been
on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang
didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time
unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in
the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really
needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when
using the brake.

Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero
chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer,
lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which
the rivets failed one by one.

Randy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't know how many on the NMU team have used the technique Sten
described to us. (Spoke wire through boot heel with rubber band
around shaft)
He was actually trialing a pair of V2 100 SR that weekend, and was not
using the rubber band himself then. (He didn't care for the feel of
the V2 100s, as I recall.)

Anyway, consider it an option if heel drag's a problem, along with
stiff flexors and the other light bungee technique I described
earlier.

Randy