Knee injury while *standing still* - well, almost.

(The earliest I can see an ortho is 1.5 months away, so I'm asking the
group.)

Everyone must be thinking I'm totally out of shape, but not really.
I'm in a reasonably good physical health. I haven't been exercising
solely for skiing, but the way I injured myself just gets me so mad
'cause I was literally standing still when it started happening.

I was standing facing uphill with ski tips together but tips apart.
(Don't ask me why I did that, I was busy trying to read the map and
telling my young son to put his gloves back on at the same time.)
Obviously, I started sliding backward, tips kept spreading apart, and
somehow I couldn't lift either ski. I was doing the 'split' till I
couldn't hold any longer and felt backward. Both knees came inside,
and felt a 'pop' on the inside of my right knee.

I felt the way how the classic beginner does who'd never been on skis.
Actually I must've looked worse.

Felt a pain on the inside of right knee, stayed down for a minute or
so. The pain went away and was able to gently ski down. No sign of
swelling or pain since the injury point and just tender and a bit
sore. Am able to put weight on the injured side, trying not to twist
at the knee. Took a couple of motrin since then, but I have to say
there is no pain, no swelling, a bit sore and tight. Very minor
instability if I can call it that.

The soreness is on the inside of the right knee and there is no
hyperextending.

Has anyone injured just the MCL? Does it feel different than ACL
injury? Do you think the MCL injury heals itself based on the
symptoms I have? Would it be ok to ski gently? (My son is taking
lessons and I need to accompany him on the chair 'cause he's too
young.)

"FGreen" wrote in message
om...
Has anyone injured just the MCL? Does it feel different than ACL
injury? Do you think the MCL injury heals itself based on the
symptoms I have? Would it be ok to ski gently? (My son is taking
lessons and I need to accompany him on the chair 'cause he's too
young.)

I sprained the hell out of my MCL two years ago skiing. Felt the pop, the
pain went away after 5 minutes, but by the time I got home that night it
hurt pretty bad. The next morning I could hardly move it, and any lateral
force caused excrutiating pain.

After a few days I could more or less walk OK. Stairs were a problem, and
the knee was fairly unstable for months. Thankfully it was towards the end
of the ski season and I called it that. Two years later, the knee is back
to normal, but the pain lingered for quite a long while. I play hockey and
go caving... took me a while to get back full mobility and I wore a brace
for about 6 months.

It sounds like yours isn't as bad as mine was, but I'd wait until I could
withstand significant lateral pressure and there was no instability before I
got back into it. Course I can't imagine accompanying the son on lessons
would do much as long as you're careful.

Talk to a doc about it.

Jon

"FGreen" wrote in message
om...

I was standing facing uphill with ski tips together but tips apart.
(Don't ask me why I did that, I was busy trying to read the map and
telling my young son to put his gloves back on at the same time.)
Obviously, I started sliding backward, tips kept spreading apart, and
somehow I couldn't lift either ski. I was doing the 'split' till I
couldn't hold any longer and felt backward. Both knees came inside,
and felt a 'pop' on the inside of my right knee.

Sometimes the best technique is to give up and fall down.

Richard Henry wrote:
"FGreen" wrote

I was standing facing uphill with ski tips together but tips apart.
(Don't ask me why I did that, I was busy trying to read the map and
telling my young son to put his gloves back on at the same time.)
Obviously, I started sliding backward, tips kept spreading apart, and
somehow I couldn't lift either ski. I was doing the 'split' till I
couldn't hold any longer and felt backward. Both knees came inside,
and felt a 'pop' on the inside of my right knee.

Sometimes the best technique is to give up and fall down.

True enough. I prefer to set it down on my terms rather than flailing
for balance and going down in a way that's not my choosing. According to
Vermont Ski Safety, trying to recover from an off-balance position is
one of the best ways to tear an ACL. Every skier should be aware of
this:
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_...iers_tips.html

The method of falling that FGreen describes (I think he meant to say
tips together, tails apart, facing uphill) is damn hard to get out of
once it starts. It's caught me a couple of times.

Anyway, if I was in FGreen's position, I'd find a qualified medical
professional to look at it sooner rather than later.


--
//-Walt
//
// http://tinyurl.com/3gg3e

On 19 Feb 2004 07:14:42 -0800, (FGreen) wrote:

(The earliest I can see an ortho is 1.5 months away, so I'm asking the
group.)

Everyone must be thinking I'm totally out of shape, but not really.
I'm in a reasonably good physical health. I haven't been exercising
solely for skiing, but the way I injured myself just gets me so mad
'cause I was literally standing still when it started happening.

I was standing facing uphill with ski tips together but tips apart.
(Don't ask me why I did that, I was busy trying to read the map and
telling my young son to put his gloves back on at the same time.)
Obviously, I started sliding backward, tips kept spreading apart, and
somehow I couldn't lift either ski. I was doing the 'split' till I
couldn't hold any longer and felt backward. Both knees came inside,
and felt a 'pop' on the inside of my right knee.

I felt the way how the classic beginner does who'd never been on skis.
Actually I must've looked worse.

Felt a pain on the inside of right knee, stayed down for a minute or
so. The pain went away and was able to gently ski down. No sign of
swelling or pain since the injury point and just tender and a bit
sore. Am able to put weight on the injured side, trying not to twist
at the knee. Took a couple of motrin since then, but I have to say
there is no pain, no swelling, a bit sore and tight. Very minor
instability if I can call it that.

The soreness is on the inside of the right knee and there is no
hyperextending.

Has anyone injured just the MCL? Does it feel different than ACL
injury? Do you think the MCL injury heals itself based on the
symptoms I have? Would it be ok to ski gently? (My son is taking
lessons and I need to accompany him on the chair 'cause he's too
young.)

Yikes. The knee is complex, I'm no MD, and this is usenet, so don't
take this to the bank, but you may well have blown your ACL. The fall
you describe, backwards, with a twist to the knee, loading the tails
of the skis (which then try to snap back) sounds like the classic
ACL-popper. The symptoms you describe sound a whole lot like when I
blew mine (totally severed it playing ultimate), especially the "pop",
the serious-but-not-lasting pain, and the substantial functionality
afterwards.

I was in denial about mine for about three months afterwards. I was
able to walk just fine, and do a lot of windsurfing, but couldn't do
anything involving impact, like running or jumping, or stress on a
deeply flexed knee (like ducking under the boom while tacking a small
sailboat). BUT, this three-month period is probably when I picked up
the multiple cartilage tears that were found along with the blown ACL.
So based on my experience, I'd say you can _probably_ ski gently, as
the hamstring muscle will take over a lot of the work the ACL was
doing, but be aware that you are taking a chance on further injury by
doing so. My non-professional advice would be to give it a try, but
take it easy, stay out of the bumps and the terrain park, don't ski
all day long (muscles get fatigued at the end of the day), LAY OFF if
the soreness gets worse (or if you have any sudden, sharp pains) and
get checked ASAP. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

bw

(FGreen) wrote:
(The earliest I can see an ortho is 1.5 months away, so I'm asking the
group.)

[snip embarassing story of injurious fall]

Felt a pain on the inside of right knee, stayed down for a minute or
so. The pain went away and was able to gently ski down. No sign of
swelling or pain since the injury point and just tender and a bit
sore. Am able to put weight on the injured side, trying not to twist
at the knee. Took a couple of motrin since then, but I have to say
there is no pain, no swelling, a bit sore and tight. Very minor
instability if I can call it that.

The soreness is on the inside of the right knee and there is no
hyperextending.

Has anyone injured just the MCL? Does it feel different than ACL
injury? Do you think the MCL injury heals itself based on the
symptoms I have? Would it be ok to ski gently? (My son is taking
lessons and I need to accompany him on the chair 'cause he's too
young.)

Haven't injured my MCL, but tore my ACL a few years back. Completely
different animals with regard to pain, etc. With ACL injuries, there
may not be any pain at all, even for a complete tear. That was the
case with mine, as well as for a few friends who've joined the ACL
club. With MCL injuries, the pain is often more severe for lesser
tears. Don't know why, but that's what I've heard, both from
orthopedists and victims. MCL tears will often heal without surgery.
Best advice is to see a good orthopedist who specializes in sports
injuries and rehabilitation. Of course, that means no skiing until
then. I'd recommend trying some light exercise (stationary bike
riding, etc) to see how it feels. If there's any significant swelling
and soreness, best to stay off the skis, as that probably means you
have a tear and are making it worse. If the light exercise goes well,
there are some off-the-shelf knee braces that will help stabilize
knees with MCL problems. They're no garauntee against causing further
damage, but they're better than nothing. Of course, it'll help
greatly if you can just avoid falling.

Richard "whose wife will kill him if he gets injured again..."

Oh yeah, don't rule out a possible tear of the medial meniscus.

For some basic knee info, check out the following sites:
http://www.eorthopod.com/eorthopodV2...s.main/area/17
http://www.scoi.com/kneeanat.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001076.htm
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001071.htm

FGreen wrote:

(The earliest I can see an ortho is 1.5 months away, so I'm asking the
group.)

CLIP description of fall, injury

Why? There are orthopods everywhere - several work in the first aid room
at my home mountain. You should be able to see one Real Soon unless you
were on a solo to the North Pole without a radio (no radio for the added
interest factor.) You might want to just drop by first aid and see who's
there next time you visit the slopes - you should have done it immediately.

Anyway, given the audible "pop" and fall desription, I'd suspect an ACL
tear. Wife has a 15 year old total tear (if you get orthoscopy, insist
on getting a video record - damndest thing to look inside your own or
another's knee) and skis without an ACL. After the initial pain pretty
good mobility returns, which can fool you. If it's a full ACL tear you
can't hurt it anymore, but can screw up the miniscus, which never heals.
If it's a partial ACL or MCL you can exceed the residual strength and
complete the tear, which is bad. The MCL will heal and be nearly as
strong as ever - mine only hurts occasionally - vitamin I takes care of it.

Bdubya covered all this pretty well. I just want to add - if it's an
ACL, Get It Fixed. They declined to work on the wife because they said
she was too old already (15 years ago, when she was just a darling young
girl of advanced years - damn HBO) and now she's considering having it
down at her current advanced age which won't make rehab any easier; get
it fixed now.

(rec.skiing removed - it's a dead group that only exists on some servers
because their sys ads are too lazy to remove it.)

Sometimes the best technique is to give up and fall down.

True enough. I prefer to set it down on my terms rather than flailing
for balance and going down in a way that's not my choosing. According to
Vermont Ski Safety, trying to recover from an off-balance position is
one of the best ways to tear an ACL. Every skier should be aware of
this:
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_...iers_tips.html

The method of falling that FGreen describes (I think he meant to say
tips together, tails apart, facing uphill) is damn hard to get out of
once it starts. It's caught me a couple of times.

Anyway, if I was in FGreen's position, I'd find a qualified medical
professional to look at it sooner rather than later.

I know, I know... I normally fall, but it was one of those cases where
you are in denial because you were barely moving. I was thinking,
'What the heck?', followed by 'I can recover this', by 'Oh, sh*t'.
Actually, I don't even know if there was a way to fall safely because
my legs were fairly apart already. Couldn't fall sideways, couldn't
fall forward, so the only way was to fall backward which messed up the
knee.

And, yes, I meant to say tips together, tails apart, facing uphill.

Anyhow, I saw my primary doc, who agreed that I should see an ortho,
and I'm seeing my ortho next week. Thanks for comments and
suggestions.

Why? There are orthopods everywhere - several work in the first aid room
at my home mountain. You should be able to see one Real Soon unless you
were on a solo to the North Pole without a radio (no radio for the added
interest factor.) You might want to just drop by first aid and see who's
there next time you visit the slopes - you should have done it immediately.

Yes, my 5 yo. son was taking lesson at a special program at the North
Pole. Kidding... I pulled up the ortho appointment (saw my PCP today,
but was no big help). Even that took half-begging and
half-threatening.

It didn't occur to me to go to first aid right away because there was
no lingering pain associated with it. I should've have in hindsight.

Thanks for the reply.

To all else that replied - thanks, and I will post follow-up after
seeing the ortho. I hope it's not a tear. The 'pop' nags me, but
then lack of pain or instability assures me, which could be a false
sense of security.