A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Nordic Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Probability of Getting Good Race Skis at Small Ski Shops ??



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 21st 04, 08:33 PM
Tim Kelley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Probability of Getting Good Race Skis at Small Ski Shops ??

I'm starting this discussion thread so hopefully I and other r.s.n
readers can learn more about how racing skis are distributed from the
manufacturer to the consumer. I'll keep this discussion "ski vendor
generic" so as not to offend anyone.

I don't know much about ski manufacturer distribution models. But I
know a lot about buying skis ... I've been buying skis for over 30
years. During this time I can safely say, the best skis I've ever
owned I either bought in Europe, or bought 2nd hand from a former
European national team member. I've never had much luck buying great
skis from a small local ski shop in the US.

This leads me to visualize that a typical ski company distribution
scheme as such (please ski company reps ... correct me if I'm wrong):

1) A batch of skis are made in Europe.
2) World Cup/ Euro national teams pick over the skis.
3) Euro clubs pick over the skis.
4) Big Euro sports shops pick over the skis.
5) What's left is sent to other places in the world, like the US
6) US National and vendor sponsored teams pick over US skis
7) Large US ski shops and ski service companies pick over skis
8) US Universities and clubs pick over skis
9) Whatever is left over ... is then shipped to small retail stores

The ordering of steps 1 to 8 above may be off ... but my main point is
that it sure seems like the best skis must be long gone before the skis
that go to local shops are shipped.

Actually, this distribution model would not be that bad ... if it
wasn't for my next point: quality control. It seems quality control
for ski manufacturers is still in the stone age.

It amazes me, and shop owners, what can show up at local ski shops in
Anchorage. Skis with identical serial numbers that don't have cambers
that are even close. Skis that are warped and would take
stone-grinding off part of the base and into the core to flatten the
ski!

I'm sure skis are difficult to make. But they can't be any more
difficult than computers, cell phones, TVs, etc. All of these devices,
like skis, were once hand made ... but then the manufacturers got their
act together. Imagine if you went to buy a Dell 8400 computer and the
salesperson said - "Why don't you squeeze these 4 keyboards to see what
fits you best". "Oh no - you can't turn the computer on and try it!"
That's the way skis are still sold.

After 30 years of composite ski manufacturing, you'd think that two
skis could be made exactly the same. But that doesn't seem to be the
case. And because of this lack of quality control, there is a need for
this hierarchal "pick-over" of skis. And the result seems to be that
the full-price-paying end customer at the small ski shop cash register
in the US ... is often screwed.

Your thoughts ...?

Tim Kelley

Ads
  #2  
Old October 21st 04, 08:56 PM
BarryT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Tim Kelley" wrote in message
oups.com...
1) A batch of skis are made in Europe.
2) World Cup/ Euro national teams pick over the skis.
3) Euro clubs pick over the skis.
4) Big Euro sports shops pick over the skis.
5) What's left is sent to other places in the world, like the US
6) US National and vendor sponsored teams pick over US skis
7) Large US ski shops and ski service companies pick over skis
8) US Universities and clubs pick over skis
9) Whatever is left over ... is then shipped to small retail stores


Heard before about skis being hand picked at the factory for world cup
skiers; always thought this was a urban legend...

And the result seems to be that
the full-price-paying end customer at the small ski shop cash register
in the US ... is often screwed.


"ABC" of marketing. Buy brand "A" because that's the one pros are skiing
on. Get grade "B" because the pros get 1st choice. Pay lots of "Cash"
because you must also pay for pros who get sponsored.

BarryT


  #3  
Old October 22nd 04, 01:50 AM
Scott Elliot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think there is at least one thing out of order on your list. Sometimes
the Canadian (and probably the American) national teams send people to the
factories to pick over skis. That would move them further towards the top
of the list. They can probably also be more specific about ski
characteristics and base materials when dealing directly at the factory.

Scott

"Tim Kelley" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm starting this discussion thread so hopefully I and other r.s.n
readers can learn more about how racing skis are distributed from the
manufacturer to the consumer. I'll keep this discussion "ski vendor
generic" so as not to offend anyone.

I don't know much about ski manufacturer distribution models. But I
know a lot about buying skis ... I've been buying skis for over 30
years. During this time I can safely say, the best skis I've ever
owned I either bought in Europe, or bought 2nd hand from a former
European national team member. I've never had much luck buying great
skis from a small local ski shop in the US.

This leads me to visualize that a typical ski company distribution
scheme as such (please ski company reps ... correct me if I'm wrong):

1) A batch of skis are made in Europe.
2) World Cup/ Euro national teams pick over the skis.
3) Euro clubs pick over the skis.
4) Big Euro sports shops pick over the skis.
5) What's left is sent to other places in the world, like the US
6) US National and vendor sponsored teams pick over US skis
7) Large US ski shops and ski service companies pick over skis
8) US Universities and clubs pick over skis
9) Whatever is left over ... is then shipped to small retail stores

The ordering of steps 1 to 8 above may be off ... but my main point is
that it sure seems like the best skis must be long gone before the skis
that go to local shops are shipped.

Actually, this distribution model would not be that bad ... if it
wasn't for my next point: quality control. It seems quality control
for ski manufacturers is still in the stone age.

It amazes me, and shop owners, what can show up at local ski shops in
Anchorage. Skis with identical serial numbers that don't have cambers
that are even close. Skis that are warped and would take
stone-grinding off part of the base and into the core to flatten the
ski!

I'm sure skis are difficult to make. But they can't be any more
difficult than computers, cell phones, TVs, etc. All of these devices,
like skis, were once hand made ... but then the manufacturers got their
act together. Imagine if you went to buy a Dell 8400 computer and the
salesperson said - "Why don't you squeeze these 4 keyboards to see what
fits you best". "Oh no - you can't turn the computer on and try it!"
That's the way skis are still sold.

After 30 years of composite ski manufacturing, you'd think that two
skis could be made exactly the same. But that doesn't seem to be the
case. And because of this lack of quality control, there is a need for
this hierarchal "pick-over" of skis. And the result seems to be that
the full-price-paying end customer at the small ski shop cash register
in the US ... is often screwed.

Your thoughts ...?

Tim Kelley



  #4  
Old October 22nd 04, 03:43 AM
jim farrell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tim Kelley wrote:


1) A batch of skis are made in Europe.
2) World Cup/ Euro national teams pick over the skis.
3) Euro clubs pick over the skis.
4) Big Euro sports shops pick over the skis.
5) What's left is sent to other places in the world, like the US
6) US National and vendor sponsored teams pick over US skis
7) Large US ski shops and ski service companies pick over skis
8) US Universities and clubs pick over skis
9) Whatever is left over ... is then shipped to small retail stores

T


you left out the citizen racers, sponsored or otherwise who get
'proform' from the distributors or in some cases from the factory.

about identical skis: some manufacturers makes skis and then try to
match them up later. the huge vagaries of manufacturing provide great
variety, different cambers for different skiers. there are some poorly
matched pairs sent out (see nordic ski research).

atomic claims to be able to make identical skis on their computer
controlled molds. they have to dial in variety to fit different skiers.
i do know that down stream, at the us retail end, i have never seen a
mismatched atomic even in their touring lines. i have seen some
terrible mismatches in the other brands. we don't sell those. i hope
they get sent back.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
  #5  
Old October 22nd 04, 04:08 AM
americanxc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I read RSN every once in a while, mostly to keep a thumb on the pulse
of master's skiing in america... You guys are the life blood of our
sport and its great to see such an enthusiastic bunch...

This is the first time I've replied to any message on RSN and Im doing
it because I wanted to clear up what Mr. Kelley had said about the
idea of 'picking over' skis- mainly because its insulting that you
think our national team gets skis after a european ski shop. come on,
man. in case you didn't notice our national team is extremely
competetive now...

-the first people to get skis are the superstars for each brand. they
are number one priority for the ski companies. these skis are picked
by the company's world cup representative and the superstar's wax
technician.

-national teams are the next to get skis. typically the wax
technicians will travel to the factory to pick skis. yes, there is a
race room where the 'best' skis are kept. yes, americans get their
skis from the same room as the norwegians.

-the next people to pick skis are the ski company's race service
people, for example eli brown with fischer or rick halling with
atomic. these guys pick skis for the athletes sponsored by that
company but not taken care of by the national team. these guys get
skis from the same room as the national team.

- skis are shipped to ski shops independent of anything going on the
top racer skis. in the us what typically happens is the company will
ship ALL of skis to an american distributor who then ships skis to
individual ski shops. the skis you buy in the us are the same skis as
bjorn is buying in norway and fritz is buying in germany. you have the
same chances of getting a good pair and a bad pair. the only possible
difference is that more people in norway/germany know how to pick
different skis for different people. thats why you guys need someone
like zach caldwell picking skis for you.

don't sell american skiing short. its disrespectful to our top young
athletes who are not far from the top.
  #6  
Old October 22nd 04, 01:02 PM
Rob Bradlee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Who wrote this?

I don't think the point of Tim's post was that US ski team people get
bad skis - his point was that shops don't provide good skis to the
average consumer. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but let's stick to
the point Tim was making.

Rob Bradlee

--- americanxc wrote:

I read RSN every once in a while, mostly to keep a thumb on the pulse
of master's skiing in america... You guys are the life blood of our
sport and its great to see such an enthusiastic bunch...

This is the first time I've replied to any message on RSN and Im
doing
it because I wanted to clear up what Mr. Kelley had said about the
idea of 'picking over' skis- mainly because its insulting that you
think our national team gets skis after a european ski shop. come on,
man. in case you didn't notice our national team is extremely
competetive now...

-the first people to get skis are the superstars for each brand. they
are number one priority for the ski companies. these skis are picked
by the company's world cup representative and the superstar's wax
technician.

-national teams are the next to get skis. typically the wax
technicians will travel to the factory to pick skis. yes, there is a
race room where the 'best' skis are kept. yes, americans get their
skis from the same room as the norwegians.

-the next people to pick skis are the ski company's race service
people, for example eli brown with fischer or rick halling with
atomic. these guys pick skis for the athletes sponsored by that
company but not taken care of by the national team. these guys get
skis from the same room as the national team.

- skis are shipped to ski shops independent of anything going on the
top racer skis. in the us what typically happens is the company will
ship ALL of skis to an american distributor who then ships skis to
individual ski shops. the skis you buy in the us are the same skis as
bjorn is buying in norway and fritz is buying in germany. you have
the
same chances of getting a good pair and a bad pair. the only possible
difference is that more people in norway/germany know how to pick
different skis for different people. thats why you guys need someone
like zach caldwell picking skis for you.

don't sell american skiing short. its disrespectful to our top young
athletes who are not far from the top.







=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training




  #7  
Old October 22nd 04, 02:41 PM
americanxc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

look...

sponsored, non national team, athletes are getting skis picked by the
manufacturer's race service rep(eli brown, jim fredericks, rick
halling). citizen racers and people buying on pro-form are getting
skis no different than those sold in stores.

no pro-form skier is getting skis chosen from the factory. that would
be a collosal waste of time...

secondly, of course the american and canadian teams are sending their
wax tech's over to pick skis directly from the factory. they are no
less or no more priority than any other national team. HOWEVER, some
individual athletes are higher priority than others.

my point is this, our national team skiers are getting skis as good or
better than any other national team out there. the absolute best skis
go to the superstars, like sommerfelt, fredricksson, auckland,
freeman...

why do i care to make this point? because respecting american xc
skiing starts at the very bottom. if young kids hear you guys talking
about how some ski shop in norway gets better skis than our national
team, he's never gonna think he has a chance and then we are back to
where we started- in the 90's when scoring a world cup point was
nothing short of a miracle.

support american ski racing.
  #8  
Old October 22nd 04, 07:45 PM
Tim Kelley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

AmericanXC, whoever you are - like Rob says (see below) ... your are
off on an angry tangent and have missed the point of this discussion.
What does your response have to do with the lack of quality control on
the part of ski companies?

Ski companies still have the wooden ski mindset that it's okay for
every composite ski to be different. They are way behind the curve in
quality control. Go to a bike store and their are wall-to-wall
composite bike parts of great quality. If you want a carbon fiber
crank you don't have to test 4 to find the right one, like you do with
skis. Composite bike frames, parts, etc. are basically all the same
due to decent quality control. Same with ski poles. Quality control
with these products are MUCH better than with skis.

If you want to support ameircan skiing - tell ski manufactures to stop
spending money on marketing BS and put the money into better quality
control. That way skis would be of better general quality FOR ALL,
prices would go down (like they have for composite bikes), more kids
could affored to ski and less parents would end up accidentally buying
garbage skis for their kids.
Why don't you go back and read the original post. Thanks,

Tim

  #9  
Old October 22nd 04, 07:45 PM
Eric Shmo Chandler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

my point is this, our national team skiers are getting skis as good or
better than any other national team out there. the absolute best skis
go to the superstars, like sommerfelt, fredricksson, auckland,
freeman...


Gotta admit that Johnny Spillane sure looked like he had rocket skis
when he won his gold in Nordic Combined at the Worlds.

Eric Chandler
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mpeg Races: Biathlon Oberhof Janne G Nordic Skiing 0 February 19th 04 06:19 AM
Mpeg Races: Alot of new intresting races and clips Janne G Nordic Skiing 5 January 19th 04 08:40 AM
Mpeg Races Biathlon Hochfilzen and XC Davos Janne G Nordic Skiing 0 December 17th 03 06:35 AM
Mpeg Races: Davos XC , Hochfilzen Biathlon Janne G Nordic Skiing 2 December 16th 03 06:45 AM
Mpeg Races: Updates, Toblach and Kontiolahti Janne G Nordic Skiing 0 December 9th 03 06:33 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.