Anybody done the Norwegian Birkie?

wrote:
NewMexSki wrote:


Way to throw down the gauntlet! Which age group are you? I don't mean
to be pessimistic, but the citizens racer level in Norway is pretty
high! Good luck!

Hey Joseph,
Thanks for the encouraging words. You've been a big help. But, you're
right about one thing, the average age grouper in Norway is a "little"
better than here in the States. So far I've talked a good talk, now I
gotta deliver =)

I've worked hard on my classical skiing the past three years and I
think that I've gotten it to be better than my freestyle, somehow.
It's been a zen experience really getting into it and learning the
finer points of it, which makes a HUGE difference in races -- just
huge. It has really helped me out in classical events and skiathlons,
but I still get schooled a bit by the really good elites around
Colorado, like Nathan Schultz and those guys. The gap has been
closing, but it's still pretty big. I just enjoy the process and wish
I had done this as a kid. It's no wonder those Scandinavians are so
good at it.

I'm finding that the difference in performance comes from little
technique deficiencies and neuromuscular adaptation. Not having grown
up doing this sport makes a big difference, like that in swimming too.
I think I'm as fit as many elite xc skiers, but they kill me just due
to the differences I mentioned.

Oh, to answer your question about my age group -- I'm now 36 -- no
spring chicken, but that seems to still be one of the fastest age
groups, regardless of age. I picked up Nordic skiing in college, when
I skied downhill and bike raced. I gave those Nordic guys a hard time
about being sissies who scampered about the woods in lycra. Ha! They
invited me out for an "easy" session and I learned a lot about what I
didn't know. I was an elite NCAA Div-1 collegiate Alpine skier, and I
felt like a complete beginner on xc skis. I now give all of my Alpine
snob friends a hard time about not really knowing how to ski.

I like Nordic skiing as a sport hobby. I race bikes for so many years
too, and I'm all burned out and bitter about it. I was a pro cyclist
for years, having raced with Lance, Tyler, etc. on the national team,
and just ended up leaving the sport when I was 29 with a bad taste in
my mouth. I'll leave it at that.

Now, I do master's xc skiing a bit; Colorado has a very active scene
and I promote a couple of races here in NNM. I've gone to master's
nationals a couple of times too...once in Anchorage in 2003, and last
year in Bend, which was fantastic. Master's racing gives me a reason
to train obsessively and feed my compulsion. I also like the skiing
and technique aspect of it.

Terje Mathisen wrote....:

Like I said, saying I can place in my age group is one thing, but
actually doing it is another! We'll see about where they place me in a
wave...this should be a good experiment, anyway.

1000 meters of altitude, huh? Wow, we have deserts higher than that.

In order to be able to have all this snow and skiing at this latitude,
we have to go to altitudes above about 7,500 feet, or 2,300 meters. In
most cases, as in the town where I live, the Alpine and xc ski trails
are at about 9,000 ft, or 2,750m. and go over 10,000ft. The town of
Leadville, CO, which has a lot of xc skiing and a very hard marathon
(skate) is at 10,200ft (3,100m).

I once did the Leadville 100 xc ski race (they also have a famous 100
mile run and mtn. bike race too). What a crazy experience. 161km of
racing at 3,100m. It was harder than any Ironman triathlon I've done
and took me almost 11hrs to complete. My wrists and feet hurt so
badly, I could hardly stand it by the finish. I was slightly starting
to hallucinate too.

Anyway, I'm glad you're on snow. I sure hope the situation improves.

NewMexSki wrote:
wrote:
NewMexSki wrote:


Way to throw down the gauntlet! Which age group are you? I don't mean
to be pessimistic, but the citizens racer level in Norway is pretty
high! Good luck!

Hey Joseph,
Thanks for the encouraging words. You've been a big help. But, you're
right about one thing, the average age grouper in Norway is a "little"
better than here in the States. So far I've talked a good talk, now I
gotta deliver =)

We're watching! ;-)


I've worked hard on my classical skiing the past three years and I
think that I've gotten it to be better than my freestyle, somehow.
It's been a zen experience really getting into it and learning the
finer points of it, which makes a HUGE difference in races -- just
huge. It has really helped me out in classical events and skiathlons,
but I still get schooled a bit by the really good elites around
Colorado, like Nathan Schultz and those guys. The gap has been
closing, but it's still pretty big. I just enjoy the process and wish
I had done this as a kid. It's no wonder those Scandinavians are so
good at it.

My 7 year old son got a Swix racing suit for Christmas, we're off to
try it out today. I'm more than a bit jealous... The standard joke is
he's race for the US if he is good, and for Norway if he is REAL good.

I'm finding that the difference in performance comes from little
technique deficiencies and neuromuscular adaptation. Not having grown
up doing this sport makes a big difference, like that in swimming too.
I think I'm as fit as many elite xc skiers, but they kill me just due
to the differences I mentioned.

I'm still on the steep end of the technique learning curve, so I see
huge differences in my fitness level vs my speed level. It's good to
know it's not a lost cause for us who didn't start as kids.

Oh, to answer your question about my age group -- I'm now 36 -- no
spring chicken, but that seems to still be one of the fastest age
groups, regardless of age. I picked up Nordic skiing in college, when

I'm 36 too. Still a quite strong age. At all but the highest levels I
don't consider 36 to be any handicap at all.



I like Nordic skiing as a sport hobby. I race bikes for so many years
too, and I'm all burned out and bitter about it. I was a pro cyclist
for years, having raced with Lance, Tyler, etc. on the national team,
and just ended up leaving the sport when I was 29 with a bad taste in
my mouth. I'll leave it at that.

Maybe you'll come back to it. Perhaps mass rides that are more
structured like the Birkebeiner would have some appeal rather than
conventional bike racing? See you at RAAM 2010? ;-)

Now, I do master's xc skiing a bit; Colorado has a very active scene
and I promote a couple of races here in NNM. I've gone to master's
nationals a couple of times too...once in Anchorage in 2003, and last
year in Bend, which was fantastic. Master's racing gives me a reason
to train obsessively and feed my compulsion. I also like the skiing
and technique aspect of it.

The only unfortunate thing with skiing is the short season. How long is
your season up there?

Joseph

NewMexSki wrote:
....

Like I said, saying I can place in my age group is one thing, but
actually doing it is another!

....

I once did the Leadville 100 xc ski race (they also have a famous 100
mile run and mtn. bike race too). What a crazy experience. 161km of
racing at 3,100m. It was harder than any Ironman triathlon I've done
and took me almost 11hrs to complete. My wrists and feet hurt so
badly, I could hardly stand it by the finish. I was slightly starting
to hallucinate too.

What I guessed earlier about you having some experience in
endurance events was obviously grossly understated.
And though I have little experience trying
to ski fast at anything like that altitude,
I would guess that even a flat course at 10,000 ft.
is noticeably harder than a steady 4% climb at effectively
sea level. Maintaining a 15 km/hr. average (was it classic?)
over 11 hours at that altitude will make the Birken seem easy.
That's like doing the complete CSM in one day,
with thin oxygen concentration to boot.
So I'm sure you'll do great stuff in Norway.
We've had a few RSNers with very
good racing records over here
(certainly don't include myself there)
who went to the Birken and didn't make the "pin" even,
so it will be good to change that!

I'm envious of all that snow out west.

Best, Peter

NewMexSki wrote:
wrote:
NewMexSki wrote:


Way to throw down the gauntlet! Which age group are you? I don't mean
to be pessimistic, but the citizens racer level in Norway is pretty
high! Good luck!

Hey Joseph,
Thanks for the encouraging words. You've been a big help. But, you're
right about one thing, the average age grouper in Norway is a "little"
better than here in the States. So far I've talked a good talk, now I
gotta deliver =)

The only things I can see causing problems for you would be logistical.
Like not being used to the food, screwing up the wax, etc.

Another thing that can be confusing is the back pack. I didn't know how
that worked the first time I did the bike race, so I ended up with a
MUCH too heavy bag. They have simple balance scales at the start area,
so all you have to do is pack your essentials (as outlined in the
registration info) and bring some plastic bags or empty soda bottles to
fill with gravel or rocks as needed to balance the scale. Trying to get
the weight spot-on beforehand at home is a waste of time and not likely
to be correct as you may at the last minute add some stuff.

Joseph

Peter H. wrote:

We've had a few RSNers with very
good racing records over here
(certainly don't include myself there)
who went to the Birken and didn't make the "pin" even,
so it will be good to change that!

There seems there is always a bit of discussion about the "pin" which
is granted to all those who finish within a time 125% of the average of
the best 5 finishers. Last year was an extreme case, and there was lots
of activity on the web forum with statistics from various years, etc.
When considering the OP's age class, there is a very wide range. The
top finishers are often recently ex-elite level athletes who help drive
the pin cut-off time down, but the group as a whole often does rather
poorly. Probably because there are lots parents of small kids and other
types of people with time constraints that other age groups don't have
as much of, and perhaps a larger percentage of overweight people on an
exercise program to lose weight. The older groups have a more level
performance spectrum. The new seeded start arrangement seems to have
made things better, but the poor conditions last year made it hard to
tell if it worked or not.

My theory is that due to the nature of the forces of resistance while
cycling, the 125% rule makes the bike pin easier than the skiing pin.


Joseph

Hey Peter,
I wrote a report about this event, and there's a couple of picture of
me at the finish. I have more of the event too -- very beautiful
surroundings at this high altitude.

See:
www.swnordicski.org (look for the "race reports" on the sidebar) for
the story. It was one HELL of an experience.

It was a freestyle event, but after about 80km, it became very tiring
to skate and really hurt my feet, so where I could, I got in the
classic track and double-poled. I marathon strided a little too, just
to mix things up. There were some monster hills on about 1/2 of the
lap (we did a 25 mile (~40.25 km) lap four times.

It was a tough event as far as endurance races go. It seemed harder,
somehow, than the Spenco 500 (500 miles or 806.5 km) bike race I did
when I was 19 yrs old. Of course, that course was flat, I had lots of
the team relay guys to draft off of, and it was near Austin, TX, where
it's nice and low altitude.

Clay



Peter H. wrote:
NewMexSki wrote:
...

Like I said, saying I can place in my age group is one thing, but
actually doing it is another!

...

I once did the Leadville 100 xc ski race (they also have a famous 100
mile run and mtn. bike race too). What a crazy experience. 161km of
racing at 3,100m. It was harder than any Ironman triathlon I've done
and took me almost 11hrs to complete. My wrists and feet hurt so
badly, I could hardly stand it by the finish. I was slightly starting
to hallucinate too.

What I guessed earlier about you having some experience in
endurance events was obviously grossly understated.
And though I have little experience trying
to ski fast at anything like that altitude,
I would guess that even a flat course at 10,000 ft.
is noticeably harder than a steady 4% climb at effectively
sea level. Maintaining a 15 km/hr. average (was it classic?)
over 11 hours at that altitude will make the Birken seem easy.
That's like doing the complete CSM in one day,
with thin oxygen concentration to boot.
So I'm sure you'll do great stuff in Norway.
We've had a few RSNers with very
good racing records over here
(certainly don't include myself there)
who went to the Birken and didn't make the "pin" even,
so it will be good to change that!

I'm envious of all that snow out west.

Best, Peter

no to the norwegian birkie, but the vasaloppet last winter in sweden was
amazing !! do it next

JKal.

Placing ----- interesting read on trying to get a good placing wave start in
Norway Clay.

I skied several races in prep for the Swedish Vasaloppet - Marquette's
Noqeumanon (40th overall), TC Vasa in Michigan (about 30th overall), and
several local races. Based on this they gave me a wave 2 start - I was
stunned, happy, and a little nervous. Wave 2 guys will usually finish in
the top 500-900. Considering i've skied the American Birkie twice
(finishing 122nd and 160th or so) I though it might be realistic I finish in
the top 1000.

Well, after several 70+ year olds passed me at 20km into the 90km race, I
realized European standards of being "good" are like.... wow. I ended up
around 3000th place or so. Being "good" here in the USA makes you quite
average over there. wow.

JKal.
"NewMexSki" wrote in message
ps.com...
OK, Terje, Gary, and everyone else who replied. This is all good
information. It is exactly what I'm looking for -- thanks! I'm
getting pretty excited about this trip. It made me work even harder on
learning my Norwegian.

I arranged the trip with a Norwegian lady who lives in Minnesota (I
live in New Mexico). She did an excellent job with the organization
and has been a pleasure to work with. I swear, Scandinavians and
Germans are so efficient. It's much different than planning a trip to
Mexico or something like that.

Sounds like we will need to be careful with how much we ski when we get
there. I might end up too tired to do the Birkebeiner, which has
happened to me in the past when I went on a big ski trip to do a race.
It's almost better to do the race first, then explore the trails and
such.

Seems there's not a whole lot of snow around Norway (or the rest of
Europe) at the moment. How strange is that? We have lots here in
Northern NM, where we are on the same latitude with Nashville, TN,
Northern Morocco and the Greek Isles. It's pretty cold too. I think
we Americans drive our SUVs too much and need to ride our bikes
more...=)

As far as my wave placement, I am working with my friend, Svein
Nordaas, on getting a better start. I skied the American Birkebeiner
once and it was awful. I did a qualifier race, the Alley Loop in
Crested Butte (http://www.cbnordic.org/alleyloop.html -- from last year
I'm the 5th skier in the bottom line), and got placed in the 4th wave
as that was "the best they could do for a first-timer." It was
ridiculous. I skied by myself from the start until about 6 km into it
and ran into the back of a wall of pretty chunky licra-clad xc skiers
from the 3rd wave and later the 2nd and even 1st waves. No lie, I
double-poled and marathon strided in the classical track almost the
entire rest of the event in order to pass masses of people. It wasn't
that much fun as a race, but it was fun as a big event. I had to be
really patient but now I have fond memories of the whole event. The
people were all so great.

Anyway, I had to send a list of results and some recommendations from
some Norwegian skiers here in the States (collegiate skiers) so that
the organization would even consider putting me into a competitive
wave. Apparently, they're pretty strict about the whole thing. I told
them I plan on winning my age group, and that seemed to light a fire
under their butts and take my request seriously. Of course I don't
know if I'll win my age group, but I should be up there at least. I
hope I don't let them all down and embarrass myself. I don't think so,
as my classical is solid and I've done a lot of classical marathons
that all went well even in bad conditions. Plus, with all the snow we
have, I'm able to train well at the moment.

OK, I've just wasted a lot of time. Gotta get back to work. Thanks
again and I'll keep everyone posted.

If any of you are ever interested in NM xc skiing, I'll keep some race
reports and photos at our club's website:
www.swnordicski.org
there's a link to our Yahoo groups website under the trails and
conditions report.



Terje Mathisen wrote:
wrote:
Terje knows more about the WC race, but with Oslo's 1200+ km of trails,

32 degrees wrote:
Placing ----- interesting read on trying to get a good placing wave start in
Norway Clay.

I skied several races in prep for the Swedish Vasaloppet - Marquette's
Noqeumanon (40th overall), TC Vasa in Michigan (about 30th overall), and
several local races. Based on this they gave me a wave 2 start - I was
stunned, happy, and a little nervous. Wave 2 guys will usually finish in
the top 500-900. Considering i've skied the American Birkie twice
(finishing 122nd and 160th or so) I though it might be realistic I finish in
the top 1000.

Well, after several 70+ year olds passed me at 20km into the 90km race, I

The problem with those 70+ guys is that they've usually retired at 60+,
enabling them to train every day in daylight, or twice if/when they feel
like it.

They are _very_ recognizable in Nordmarka, as the skiers you meet a long
way into the trail system, early Saturday or Sunday: They've started at
least an hour earlier than the rest of us, and now they are on their way
back.

Oh, and they _always_ ski with a small (probably about 3+ kg) backpack! :-)

realized European standards of being "good" are like.... wow. I ended up
around 3000th place or so. Being "good" here in the USA makes you quite
average over there. wow.

NewMexSki's main problem will probably be those guys who have just left
the elite teams, and now, in their late thirties, figure they can
finally _win_ a major race.

Terje
--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"