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#1
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Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Today, use magic turns. To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski. Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders. To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties, traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski (if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN* pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and *TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a bit and turn. Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn with a *wedge*. Right? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. Pretty please? |
#2
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"foot2foot" wrote People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) probably won't do anything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. |
#3
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"Dmitry" wrote in message
I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? Because in most cases, it has taken people *years* to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the first day. This system solves that problem. I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old systems, or with most people that never had any help, on the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody. and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This system is gaining wider use by the day. Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system. But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job. You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen. probably won't do anything. Actually it does everything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want. Most people can't do this. They need finesse. The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different. Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea. Especially for a beginner No? |
#4
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"foot2foot" wrote Because in most cases, it has taken people *years* to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the first day. This system solves that problem. Are you talking about those "ski three times a year" kinda people? I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within hours. Well, if this is the case (blues within hours), than this is of course totally worth preaching. Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea. Some people have great problems with it, some are just fine. It depends a lot on how their bindings are set up (highback forward lean and angles). I can set up mine to have a lot of stability just bombing on flat board, but this makes other things less comfortable. Especially for a beginner No? First useful thing a beginner usually learns is J-turns, which essentially is going from flat to lots of edge. And the major issue is, just like with skis, they're waaay to far back on the board. |
#5
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foot2foot wrote:
"Dmitry" wrote in message I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? Because in most cases, it has taken people *years* to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the first day. This system solves that problem. I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old systems, or with most people that never had any help, on the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody. and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This system is gaining wider use by the day. Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20 years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was some years old. foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he can). So, new? Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system. But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job. You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen. Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic turns"! And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough: Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln. YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficul than from mastered stemmbogen to parallel. probably won't do anything. Actually it does everything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want. Most people can't do this. They need finesse. The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different. Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea. Especially for a beginner No? -- Nobody is perfect not even in failing |
#6
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"Thomas Raml" wrote in message ... Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20 years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was some years old. There's a few new twists. For instance absolute insistence on hand position, and the concept of home position. Then, wedge changeups followed up the the schrittbogen schuss drill, something which I've never seen done before until the last few years. Also, there's the bunny berm. An absolutely bombproof learning progression for even the most terrified or clumsy. No fear, no danger. foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he can). Thank you. So, new? Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic turns"! And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough: Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln. In this order that was used, what was the purpose of the schrittbogen step? Then, to move into Stemmbogen? It makes no sense, it's like going backward. And to think they could've just thrown stem out the window and used the wedge itself to initiate, then gone right to parallel via schrittbogen. I'm often wondering about vorlage, rucklage, and some others. Would these be French? YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficult than from mastered stemmbogen to parallel. I'm not sure what you mean here.... Nobody is perfect not even in failing With the bunny berm, a new skier falling is made almost obsolete. Austria. Impressive credentials I'd say. Thanks very much for the reply(s). |
#7
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foot2foot wrote:
"Thomas Raml" wrote in message ... Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20 years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was some years old. There's a few new twists. For instance absolute insistence on hand position, and the concept of home position. Then, wedge changeups followed up the the schrittbogen schuss drill, something which I've never seen done before until the last few years. Also, there's the bunny berm. An absolutely bombproof learning progression for even the most terrified or clumsy. No fear, no danger. foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he can). Thank you. So, new? Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic turns"! And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough: Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln. In this order that was used, what was the purpose of the schrittbogen step? Then, to move into Stemmbogen? It makes no sense, it's like going backward. And to think they could've just thrown stem out the window and used the wedge itself to initiate, then gone right to parallel via schrittbogen. That was a good 15 years before my ski instructors lessons. It was the way you learnt skiing in the first half of the 60ies in Austria in skischools ;-) I'm often wondering about vorlage, rucklage, and some others. Would these be French? Don't know, but when I mastered parallel and wedeln, there came up that new turn called "jet turn" (around 1970 me thinks). You had to have very much ruecklage (imagine the position like sitting on a chair - ankle of knees ca. 90 Degrees -, leveling out all terrain with your feet). Looked really elegant to go down a mogul piste (If you had the strength and stamina). At that time there were sold enforcements for ski boots you could apply to the rear side of the boots to improve your rueklage. I still have the tendence to be in slight ruecklage (deadly with slalom racing carvers now ;-)), old habits, you know. YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficult than from mastered stemmbogen to parallel. I'm not sure what you mean here.... I mean, for a beginner it is more difficult to lift one ski off ground (before the turn its the outer ski) to initiate the turn, than just shift weight in a plow to the other ski - the beginner has still his two feet on the ground ;-). sorry for the late answer, but don't have the time to check all newsgroups daily :-(. With the bunny berm, a new skier falling is made almost obsolete. Austria. Impressive credentials I'd say. Thanks very much for the reply(s). -- Nobody is perfect not even in failing |
#8
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"Dmitry" wrote in message news:Icesd.188394$HA.145589@attbi_s01... "foot2foot" wrote People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've witnessed no less than five people of very different background start skiing parallel on their first or second day with very little external influence. They all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though, and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature) probably won't do anything. I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all. |
#9
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"LePheaux" wrote I could understand something like this when learning to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged chikens. It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all. **** off, moron. |
#10
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foot2foot wrote:
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old stem christy". But it's not. People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does, how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"? Today, use magic turns. To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski. Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders. To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties, traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski (if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN* pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and *TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a bit and turn. Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference? See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn with a *wedge*. Right? Serious replies only please. No subject changing, small talk or giggle posts. Pretty please? I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not sure how it works really. I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then turned that into carving. I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side. As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and let them curve a little bit. Eventually I learned to just lean into the ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it. |
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