FS Rules

Locals discounts

A few days ago I suggested that their were no "locals" lift tickets rates (in
CO) because the Forest Service doesn't allow that kind of discrimination. Some
of you said I was wrong and asked me to prove my supposition. I ask you to
prove I am wrong. (I know one exception - more later).

Like I said I don't know of any case in Colorado where a local ID can be shown
in order to obtain a discount for either day tickets or a season pass. And I
have read of various cases where the FS has weighed in on "special rate"
situations. (Note: All ski areas are allowed to charge different rates for
children, adults, and seniors, and can provide multi-day discounts.)

For example, Copper Mtn provides a special (shorter) lift line for folks
booking their lodging packages. The FS said that everyone must be able to
access that line. So Copper sells access to the line - for $100 a day (I think
the FS and the public got snookered on that one).

The only examples I heard from you guys was in New England (not CO), and Big
Mountain (not CO).

There is one exception I am aware of. Ski companies are allowed to sell
"merchant passes" to employes of local businesses. These are not availabe to
the GP. I don't know how the FS justifies this.

Your ball.

Cheers, TCS

TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Loveland opens in 3 weeks.

Bob Lee wrote:

Um, the Forest service is nationwide - it isn't a state deal. Their
policies in one state are basically the same in another. If lift rates
have to be the same in NE or MT, they have to be the same in CO.

Minor quibble: Eastern resorts are usually on privately held land.
Western resorts are mostly on Forest Service land. There are
exceptions, but TCS's east v west comment has some validity. Of course,
the real question to ask is "is the resort on FS land" not "is it in the
west".

That said, it's extremely lame for TCS to simply say "prove me wrong".
Since he's arguing in the affirmative (i.e. claiming there's a Forest
Service rule that prohibits a locals only disount.) the burden of proof
is on him.

Another observation: an example of a resort on FS land that offers
locals-only discounts doesn't disprove TCS, any more than a car observed
going 90mph disproves the existence of a 70mph speed limit.

TCS, you're it.

--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

TCS wrote:
Locals discounts


CLIP

There is one exception I am aware of. Ski companies are allowed to sell
"merchant passes" to employes of local businesses. These are not availabe to
the GP. I don't know how the FS justifies this.

Round here much of the inbounds area is FS; there are a number of
discount season passes - local business employees being one; but other
groups can get discounted season passes. Deals are also offered to local
school kids, with letters from their teachers on school letterhead.
Deals are offered to participants in various local activities, including
Snow Festival and various fund-raisers - these essentually exclude
non-locals due to purchase processes.

I think the Forest Service doesn't really get involved, except maybe for
possible illegal discrimination attempts (race, religion, national
origin, sexual orientation) although I've never heard of such
discrimination being attempted.

On 05 Oct 2004 03:43:34 GMT, (TCS) wrote:

Your ball.

Personally, I don't know of any ski areas in Utah that offer discounts
to a citizen of Utah, or to someone possessing a Utah driver license,
for example.

Plenty of other discounts around, such as military discounts, student
discounts, etc., however, none seem to be based solely upon residence,
citizenship, or identification status.

-Astro

On 05 Oct 2004 03:43:34 GMT, (TCS) wrote:

For example, Copper Mtn provides a special (shorter) lift line for folks
booking their lodging packages. The FS said that everyone must be able to
access that line. So Copper sells access to the line - for $100 a day (I think
the FS and the public got snookered on that one).

This a bull**** ! Just as bad as the ski instructors with students
that are allowed to cut the line. Total bull**** !

Instructors that cut lift lines that are located on federal land are
****ing jerks...

....and there should be a Forest Service rule against it!!!

-Astro

---
maximum exposure f/2.8
http://www.xmission.com/~hound/astro/03-04/index.htm
---

Okay - there is no FS rule that says everyone has to pay the same price.
I can't find it. That proves it.



Not to me

Fine, I just asked if you could cite something - please tell us where
you read that.


The Vail Trail, The Summit Sentinel
Um, the Forest service is nationwide - it isn't a state deal. Their
policies in one state are basically the same in another. If lift rates
have to be the same in NE or MT, they have to be the same in CO.



a) Policies in different states and different National Forests are not always
the same. Need a cite?

b) I don't know if the ski areas referenced are on nat'l forest land. I know
more about the situation in CO. Ski areas on private land (a lot more in the
east than in the west) obviously don't have to follow FS rules.

Ding. (time)

TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Loveland opens in 2 weeks.

AstroPax wrote:

Instructors that cut lift lines that are located on federal land are
****ing jerks...

...and there should be a Forest Service rule against it!!!

Are you sure about that? I have done the instruction thing just a few
times.
If there were not line cutting available for you and your instructor
it will be used a lot less. The meter runs while waiting in line.
So, you make instruction less attractive, thus having even more
poor riders out there on the runs. I have no problem with ski
school/private instruction getting line cutting privs. You are
paying to learn to ski better, not wait in line while the
meter runs.

Sam "Loveland......it is getting close now" Seiber

(TCS) wrote in message ...
Locals discounts

A few days ago I suggested that their were no "locals" lift tickets rates (in
CO) because the Forest Service doesn't allow that kind of discrimination. Some
of you said I was wrong and asked me to prove my supposition. I ask you to
prove I am wrong. (I know one exception - more later).

Like I said I don't know of any case in Colorado where a local ID can be shown
in order to obtain a discount for either day tickets or a season pass. And I
have read of various cases where the FS has weighed in on "special rate"
situations. (Note: All ski areas are allowed to charge different rates for
children, adults, and seniors, and can provide multi-day discounts.)

For example, Copper Mtn provides a special (shorter) lift line for folks
booking their lodging packages. The FS said that everyone must be able to
access that line. So Copper sells access to the line - for $100 a day (I think
the FS and the public got snookered on that one).

The only examples I heard from you guys was in New England (not CO), and Big
Mountain (not CO).

There is one exception I am aware of. Ski companies are allowed to sell
"merchant passes" to employes of local businesses. These are not availabe to
the GP. I don't know how the FS justifies this.

Your ball.

Cheers, TCS

TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Loveland opens in 3 weeks.


Hmm, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? If you say a law
or policy is on the books then shouldn't you be able to refrence said
law or policy? In a way, all of Vail Corps buddy and 5 mountain
passes are local only passes because you have to make the initial
purchase in Colorado. Once you have purchased them once, you can
renew online.

I also think the merchant passes pretty much qualify as a locals only
pass. There are also passes you can get through organizaions like
http://boec.org mainly for volunteer time that are available only to
people who can put in enough volunteer time (ie. locals).

snoig

AstroPax wrote:
On 05 Oct 2004 03:43:34 GMT, (TCS) wrote:

Your ball.

Personally, I don't know of any ski areas in Utah that offer discounts
to a citizen of Utah, or to someone possessing a Utah driver license,
for example.

I've had to show a Utah drivers license or utility bill with Utah
address for deals at Park City, Deer Valley, and Sundance, but I don't
think any of those have FS Special Use permits.

But coming from a legal standpoint, how does a ski pass differ from a
fishing license? You definitely pay more as a non resident for
fishing on Forest Service Land.

-klaus

If you want to be confident there *isn't* such a policy, you'd need to make
sure you had fully reviewed the entire Forest Service Manual and Forest
Service Handbook (including the regional supplements). That's a *lot* of
material!

This doesn't exactly go directly to "local discounts," but there is a
general policy (at FSM 2340.3-5b) that the FS is supposed to: "Ensure that
all services and facilities provided by private individuals or public
entities under special use permits are equally available to all members of
the the public."

Perhaps more to the point, consider the permit fees that operators pay to
the Forest Service. As most people know, they're based on gross sales. The
calculation of gross sales is subject to pretty detailed rules (e.g., what
about free passes given to instructors?). Among those in the Rocky Mountain
region's supplement (don't know if other regions also address this): "Price
variations not allowed to the general public for individuals not specified
in the exempt categories and not related to age, length of stay and group
size will be considered a non-exempt gratuity. The marginal difference
between the price charged and what the general public would pay must be
included in gross sales." This doesn't *prohibit* local discounts ... but it
does say that if a ski area gives a local discount, their fee to the Forest
Service will be based on the full price, not the discounted price.