skate skiing technique question

this question concerns edging. when you are going up a slight incline
and you push off with your posterior ski it is of course on the inside
edge but is your forward (anterior) ski flat against
the snow or do you edge that also when you first put the ski down?

in other words do you put the ski down flat then roll it onto the
inside edge when it becomes the posterior ski or do you always have it
on the inside edge even when it is the forward (anterior) ski.

thankyou.

Not that I'm a pro coach, but...

I'd say that on a slight incline the skis are mostly going from side to
side. Stepping forward with one ski while shoving the other one back
and to the side is less encouraged these days. This seems readily done
when one pushes mostly with the heel. Keeping heel down prevents one
from pushing rearward too much.

As you push, roll the ski onto its edge. The other ski is now your
glide ski and should rock on out fast and flat. Then, in V1, roll the
glide ski onto its edge as you kick back over to your strong/poling
side.

On steeper up hills you get more of a forward-stepping going on. But
the faster you're going the less that will happen.

(There's a trend at the highest level of racing, on steep hills, where
the feet set down edged already and in position to immediately kick.
This is when you're moving at race-winning speed, and it's also
high-turnover, with less-complete follow-thru of ski and arm, and
mostly side-to-side kicking with a steady torso pointing mostly
straight up the hill. There's lots of debate about this. I see a place
for it---but mostly if you're already going race-winning fast.)

The fastest gliding happens when you skate to the side. You get the
most forward distance for each kick when you kick to the side. Some
coaches even have skiers work on kicking FORWARD with heel---to have
the kicking/power ski end up farther AHEAD at the end of the kick.
(That's also a speedskating drill.) In real life, at full speed, the
leg drifts back, but you're not trying to kick back. So we don't really
say rearward or forward ski but poling-side and glide-side for V1. For
V2A and V2 the leg action is even more symmetric.

We only have forward/rearward skis when we're using kick wax.

--JP

short answer to "do you always have it on the inside edge even when it is
the forward (anterior) ski?": No.

Longer: Take the intermediate group skate lesson at Royal Gorge the next
time you're there. Their excellent instructional staff will show you various
drills to help you learn how to completely transfer your weight from one ski
to the other. Being always on an edge is a sure sign of poor weight
transfer. You should always be trying to land the ski flat and stay balanced
on that ski for as long as you can. The only exception to this rule is on
very steep climbing (think going up the steepest parts of black diamonds
like mirkwood overlook at RG). When the instructor asks "what areas would
you like to work on?" tell her/him "slow V2".

Bob

"wintermutt" wrote in message
oups.com...
this question concerns edging. when you are going up a slight incline
and you push off with your posterior ski it is of course on the inside
edge but is your forward (anterior) ski flat against
the snow or do you edge that also when you first put the ski down?

in other words do you put the ski down flat then roll it onto the
inside edge when it becomes the posterior ski or do you always have it
on the inside edge even when it is the forward (anterior) ski.

thankyou.

In addition to the lesson Bob suggested...

There is a direct relationship between ability to glide on a flat ski
(or virtually flat) and success in skating in general and V1 technique
in particular, at all levels. Many skiers even think about landing on
the outside of their skis in V1, which helps get them onto a flat ski.
I understand there has been some discussion about landing on edges in V1
(only), esp. from John Aahlberg, and if you watch the World Cup videos,
you'll notice some skiers, esp. the Germans, with a bow-legged style
that is the result of "edge skiing." However, I can say from my own
experiments that's more of a subjective thing (intention), since if you
look in slow motion those skiers are landing on a flat ski, but then
getting to the edges faster than others. There is by no means agreement
on this style, or anything close to results to suggest that it
necessarily offers an improvement in speed to racers at the elite level
or any other. Most important for your question as a learner is that
there aren't any short cuts to effective technique. Getting comfortable
riding a flat ski in all techniques and learning to do so without
stalling it are basic for everyone.

Gene

wintermutt wrote:

this question concerns edging. when you are going up a slight incline
and you push off with your posterior ski it is of course on the inside
edge but is your forward (anterior) ski flat against
the snow or do you edge that also when you first put the ski down?

in other words do you put the ski down flat then roll it onto the
inside edge when it becomes the posterior ski or do you always have it
on the inside edge even when it is the forward (anterior) ski.

thankyou.

I actually try to land on the outside edge. You're not there long, but
it ensures that you get a flat ski to glide on.

bt

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I think the answer is "it depends on how steep the incline is."
If you are going up a more gradual hill, try to land more on a flatter ski than on the inside edge. This way you will be able to transfer the push from the edge of your "posterior" ski into glide on the new ski. As you start to decelerate, you will roll to the inside edge of that ski and then push off of it.

If you're going up a steeper hill, the time between glide and decelerate is shorter or non-existant, and then you're just trying to maintain an uphill trajectory rather than backwards. As the hill steepens you will have a shorter glide, and shorter time until edge and pushoff. Or you will basically be landing on the edge and gliding for a short distance on that before pushoff

The general progression:
(Flats)- step onto flat ski and glide, then roll to edge to push off
step onto flat ski and after a shorter glide, roll to edge and push
step onto slightly edged ski (still getting some glide before pushoff)
step onto edged ski (gliding on the edge, but this is not as much glide as you get off a flat ski)
(Very steep) step onto ski edge with no glide (basically equals herringbone).

Of course, this neglects all aspects about course & snow conditions, cadence (high turn-over vs long glide), how long you've been skiing (spring vs 3 hrs into a marathon), etc.

Chris C
SLC, UT


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DIVI think the answer is "it depends on how steep the incline is."/DIV
DIVIf you are going up a more gradual hill, try to land more on a flatter ski than on the inside edge.  This way you will be able to transfer the push from the edge of your "posterior" ski into glide on the new ski.  As you start to decelerate, you will roll to the inside edge of that ski and then push off of it./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVIf you're going up a steeper hill, the time between glide and decelerate is shorter or non-existant, and then you're just trying to maintain an uphill trajectory rather than backwards.  As the hill steepens you will have a shorter glide, and shorter time until edge and pushoff.  Or you will basically be landing on the edge and gliding for a short distance on that before pushoff/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVThe general progression:/DIV
DIV(Flats)- step onto flat ski and glide, then roll to edge to push off/DIV
DIVstep onto flat ski and after a shorter glide, roll to edge and push/DIV
DIVstep onto slightly edged ski (still getting some glide before pushoff)/DIV
DIVstep onto edged ski (gliding on the edge, but this is not as much glide as you get off a flat ski)/DIV
DIV(Very steep) step onto ski edge with no glide (basically equals herringbone)./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVOf course, this neglects all aspects about course & snow conditions, cadence (high turn-over vs long glide), how long you've been skiing (spring vs 3 hrs into a marathon), etc./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVChris C/DIV
DIVSLC, UT/DIVp
hr size=1Do you Yahoo!?br
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To take up from a previous thread, as I started skiing from my C-O-G
this issue of flat/edge ski became moot, even on steep hills. Then, the
concern became making sure my (fore)foot was under me and turning my
pelvis (core) from ski to ski continuously. I was aware of the latter
as a way of overcoming stepping (thanks to Dan Claussen), and see that
John Burns mentions it in his Silent Sports series:

"What every skier should do after establishing the proper alignment with
their center of gravity is to immediately initiate core-directed
rotation back toward the returning boot/ski. The correct timing of
core-directed rotation is a technical nuance that many accomplished
skiers use to maintain motor control as they deftly transfer their
body's mass from ski to ski."

Burns then goes on to talk about having the patience to ride a flat ski,
while correctly timing core rotation, poling, etc. through each cycle,
as the second most common mistake that compromises skate skiing
momentum.

Gene


Chris Cline wrote:

I think the answer is "it depends on how steep the incline is."
If you are going up a more gradual hill, try to land more on a flatter ski than on the inside edge. This way you will be able to transfer the push from the edge of your "posterior" ski into glide on the new ski. As you start to decelerate, you will roll to the inside edge of that ski and then push off of it.

If you're going up a steeper hill, the time between glide and decelerate is shorter or non-existant, and then you're just trying to maintain an uphill trajectory rather than backwards. As the hill steepens you will have a shorter glide, and shorter time until edge and pushoff. Or you will basically be landing on the edge and gliding for a short distance on that before pushoff

The general progression:
(Flats)- step onto flat ski and glide, then roll to edge to push off
step onto flat ski and after a shorter glide, roll to edge and push
step onto slightly edged ski (still getting some glide before pushoff)
step onto edged ski (gliding on the edge, but this is not as much glide as you get off a flat ski)
(Very steep) step onto ski edge with no glide (basically equals herringbone).

Of course, this neglects all aspects about course & snow conditions, cadence (high turn-over vs long glide), how long you've been skiing (spring vs 3 hrs into a marathon), etc.

Chris C
SLC, UT


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
--0-690995074-1107816525=:8004
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

DIVI think the answer is "it depends on how steep the incline is."/DIV
DIVIf you are going up a more gradual hill, try to land more on a flatter ski than on the inside edge.  This way you will be able to transfer the push from the edge of your "posterior" ski into glide on the new ski.  As you start to decelerate, you will roll to the inside edge of that ski and then push off of it./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVIf you're going up a steeper hill, the time between glide and decelerate is shorter or non-existant, and then you're just trying to maintain an uphill trajectory rather than backwards.  As the hill steepens you will have a shorter glide, and shorter time until edge and pushoff.  Or you will basically be landing on the edge and gliding for a short distance on that before pushoff/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVThe general progression:/DIV
DIV(Flats)- step onto flat ski and glide, then roll to edge to push off/DIV
DIVstep onto flat ski and after a shorter glide, roll to edge and push/DIV
DIVstep onto slightly edged ski (still getting some glide before pushoff)/DIV
DIVstep onto edged ski (gliding on the edge, but this is not as much glide as you get off a flat ski)/DIV
DIV(Very steep) step onto ski edge with no glide (basically equals herringbone)./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVOf course, this neglects all aspects about course & snow conditions, cadence (high turn-over vs long glide), how long you've been skiing (spring vs 3 hrs into a marathon), etc./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVChris C/DIV
DIVSLC, UT/DIVp
hr size=1Do you Yahoo!?br
Yahoo! Search presents - a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=30648/*http://movies.yahoo.com/movies/feature/jibjabinaugural.html"Jib Jab's 'Second Term'/a
--0-690995074-1107816525=:8004--

Flat -- I think of two reasons to have your ski flat on the snow:
(1) sliding friction is a little lower when the ski is flat.
But on hard snow the difference in friction between perfectly flat and
somewhat edged is not so big. (Thus ice speedskaters don't worry about
"riding on a flat blade"). And on soft snow you're not going to glide very
long or far anyway. One well-regarded U.S. coach mentioned a couple of
years ago on this newsgroup some study which showed that elite racers spend
a low percentage of their time on a flat ski.

(2) it's a good way to learn the key skill of single-ski balance. For this
I think even better is bt's idea of landing the ski on its outside edge.
It's a greater expression of mastery than flat (also I find the ski more
controllable when I know I have it one edge or the other). Most important,
if you land the ski on its outside edge, then any "political correctness"
observers will know that you did it the "proper" way.

Edged -- I can think of two reasons to edge the ski:
(1) to transmit to the snow the force of active push of the leg extension
and hip abductor muscles. On inline skates you can transmit push-force
effectively to the pavement even if the wheels are rolling flat, but on snow
the transmission doesn't work very well unless there's some edging of the
ski (though perhaps the angle of edging needed for effective transimission
is less than lots of people think).

(2) to transmit to the snow the reactive force from side-to-side
torso-shoulder swing. Physics says that all that "weight transfer" you've
been practicing doesn't do any good for forward propulsion unless you
transmit it to the snow. Timing is critical for reactive force, and physics
says that the time to transit the reactive force from deceleration of the
torso-swing is early as weight comes onto the new ski. If that's part of
the technique game-plan, then the ski must be edged early (though perhaps
not edged sharply).

Conclusions:
(a) If you haven't learned solid single-ski balance, then the first thing is
to learn it. If you have learned it, still good to exercise it sometimes.
Actually easier to learn and practice on flat terrain, or even a gentle
downhill. But yes I suppose it's nice to feel the mastery on a gentle
uphill -- on outside edge for max PC points.

(b) Speed -- If you're trying to get speed by focusing on poling power,
then you might not be using much torso-shoulder-swing because you're tending
to align your shoulders closer to straight forward-and-back. And the first
move you're making with the leg muscles on your new ski is to lift your hips
and shoulders up and forward to build potential energy for stronger
pole-push force, not pushing directly out against the snow. So neither of
the reasons for edging would apply much, and you'd want the ski closer to
flat.

(c) Speed -- If you're trying to get speed by focusing on leg-push power,
then as one U.S. national-level coach said, "a ski that is gliding is a ski
that is slowing down". Leg-push power comes from early active pushing, which
only works with early edging.

(d) complication -- What if you're doing Open Field Skate (or "V2
Alternate", "2-skate"), and you're trying to get reactive side-force help
from a big torso-swing move on the recovery-side, but also maximum
double-pole-push force. Is it better to land the poling-side ski: Edged?
(to transmit reactive side-force) or Flat? (to glide while getting hips and
shoulders up high?). Or is the optimum perhaps first edged, then flat, then
edged again?

Anyway, out in the midst of real skiing, who can keep track if the ski is a
little edged versus perfectly flat anyway?

Ken
___________________________
wintermutt wrote
this question concerns edging. when you are going up a slight incline
and you push off with your posterior ski it is of course on the inside
edge but is your forward (anterior) ski flat against
the snow or do you edge that also when you first put the ski down?

in other words do you put the ski down flat then roll it onto the
inside edge when it becomes the posterior ski or do you always have it
on the inside edge even when it is the forward (anterior) ski.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
...
Burns then goes on to talk about having the patience to ride a flat ski,
while correctly timing core rotation, poling, etc. through each cycle,
as the second most common mistake that compromises skate skiing
momentum.

as the way to overcome the second most common mistake....