JayT's Big Saturday Workout RACE 1-31-04

(Jay Tegeder) wrote in message . com...
The more I think about it, I'm blaming my skis for my slow City of
Lakes Loppet. I know that's a convienient (sp) excuse.

Some skis just don't go in cold weather, and sometimes logic about
which ones should go well, doesn't work. You may want to try waxing
all your skate skis with a couple three layers of something cold, and
then go out and do some moderately hard work one each pair. Go ski the
same hill and downhill with each pair and see which one feels best. If
they're your rock skis, well now they're your cold skis.

My race....

I really went hard for the first 5-6 km and caught up with Ben Popp.
We were caught by people like Jey Carlson, and this bigger group
caught Max Mogren, Chip Tabor and another Rossi skier. We then had a
group of about 7 skiers, most of who normally ski faster than I, but
there were some guys I didn't know from Alaska and Salt Lake. So I sat
at the back taking body blows all day long. Each one of these hosers
would go up front and crank up the speed a little, the speed would
slow, and then someone else would do it again.

I missed my feed at about the halfway point, and with about 3 km left,
I blew up. Luckily I had a big enough gap to Tim Trudeau that he
didn't catch me. So 20th overall. I lost about 1.5 min in the last
couple km. Tim was 20 seconds back.

Jay (thank you sir may I have another) Wenner

Assuming packed snow, does ski flex make any difference in colder
temps? I seem to recall someone at Elm Creek saying something about
stiffer flex for colder weather helps, but I may have not heard
correctly.

Gene

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

Some skis just don't go in cold weather, and sometimes logic about
which ones should go well, doesn't work. You may want to try waxing
all your skate skis with a couple three layers of something cold, and
then go out and do some moderately hard work one each pair. Go ski the
same hill and downhill with each pair and see which one feels best. If
they're your rock skis, well now they're your cold skis.

Jay Tegeder wrote:
I passed Jim Farrell right before we got
on to Wirth Lake, about 8Ks into the course. He passed me back on the
lake and glided much better than me. I caught back up to him in the
hills but he pulled away on the descents. Others were passing me too
on the downhills. I gapped up to Farrell again on Brownie Lake and
stayed with him on that lake, Cedar Lake, Lake of the Isles and then
Calhoun where I went around him and put some distance between us going
on to Lake of the Isles for the second time. I talked to him after the
race. He said he started to get tired when I finally passed him.

Thanks for the props, once again. It's always great to see you out at
the events, Jay.


I also don't have a true cold ski. I choose my year old rs-10's since
they had the most K's and the softest tip of any of my skate skis. When
I wrote searching for answers about start green, I appreciated Brian
Mays response since I already had start green on these skis; he saved me
from rewaxing. I felt I had great glide (not even considering the below
zero F start temps.) in the woods. I didn't feel my skis were quite as
fast on the lake, but everybody might have experienced the same in the
more windblown sections. After the race, I did have two patches on the
inside of the groove that stayed grey after the brush out.

On the lakes, I was leading a train of many skiers. I didn't look back,
but heard someone cheering for "Jay Tegeder" I hadn't even noted who it
was we had swapped positions with. I was encouraged to be in a position
to beat Jay for once. But this pony tired breaking what little wind we
had. One skier did help lead, and he was relegated to V1 as well, while
long glide V2 was still working for me. He soon tired and no one else
would share the work. I wasn't going to do a Zorsi out there, if I
stopped I wasn't sure if I could get going again after fighting off the
cramps from about 9K on. With 5K left, Jay turned it up and took the
train with him. I had nothing left to bridge back when I belatedly woke
up to the move. Kept them in sight for a while, but then just went into
cruizer mode. Gotta do more pick ups I think.


Still, a good race, considering mostly once or twice a week training for
the year. I thought I would come in at 2 hours and I was only 5 minutes
late.

Gene,

Thanks for giving up your Saturday to shepherd the rest of us around.
It was extremely cold out there to be standing more or less in one
exposed spot. We all really appreciate it.

In hindsight, I think the pocket length was my downfall. I had pretty
decent glide on the downhills, gaining/passing people both up and
downhill. I think being able to sit back and pull the pocket up was a
big help. I'll find out this weekend at Mora, I guess.

BTW, nice job John. As cold as it was, any time was good, and it looks
like you had a pretty good go - especially with 15K or so of double pole.

Marsh Jones

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Probably shortening your kick wax zone was as important as the cold wax
prep. In the hills, however, did you have to work harder for good grip,
with lots of herringbone? Were the hills tracked? I still haven't been
on the course. I was also toasted from being outside so many hours that
day, and my legs didn't feel like going anywhere Sunday. I think just
being out in zero F temps that long does it, plus you were out on the
lakes for quite awhile. It was fortunate that there was little wind.
There were lots of frostbite cases (after a couple of hours, I had to
jump in a bus when the end of my nose turned white). Good race,

Gene

John O'Connell wrote:

Marsh,

I did the classic also and although I felt pretty good during the race
and had a good placing (12th in age) for me I was toast later that day
and very sore most of yesterday. I wonder if it is due to the 3 hours
in very cold conditions that starts to beat you down....or it could be
just being 53 years old I also have a nasty little strip of frosbite
on my face...a battle scar if you will.

My race was the opposite, I lost time in the uphills (especially in
the Flower Gardens) but I tracked down and passed about 10-15 guys
during the last 20K. I've been playing around with Solda wax this year
and my skis were greasy fast on the flats. Given the very cold temps
this was a big surprise. I spent quite a bit of time this week getting
very cold wax into the ski and lots of intense brushing. In all I
probably ended up with 6 layers of cold wax. I raced on Solda F15 blue
(a low Fluor) covered with Hydrocarbon HC-28 which, I believe is some
kind of antistatic covered with two final layers of S-30....which is
their version of very cold powder. Rode special green for kick and I
did shorten my wax pocket about three inches, I had fine grip the
whole way.

John O'Connell

Ken,

I'd guess it was brushing with a metal brush that slowed your skis
down. I had slow skis with LF4 but I'm convinced it was the ski and
structure that was my problem. I know guys that had fast skis with
LF4, Fastwax White, Start Green etc.

Jay Tegeder
"Keep training, lycra never lies!" JT

(Kenneth Salzberg) wrote in message line.edu...
Unlike John O, I had the slowest skis I've ever raced on - esp. compared
to the folks I started with. I think I've got enough "distance" from this
painful event to at least post some questions.
These are the skis I used in last year's Korte, and did very well (2nd
in my age group). I've waxed them a few times since then, but not skied
on them very much. They had a layer of soft wax on them over the summer.
Last week I cleaned them with fast wax purple, then put a layer of FW
Blue, and then two layers of FW white.
I brushed them, first with copper and then blue nylon, a great deal -
even took them outside in the -20 evening temps for a while, then brought
them inside for more brushing. At the start of the race, John Dyste
brushed them again after most of my warm-up skiing with the Homenkollen
Steel Micro Finish Brush.
After skiing up the first hill, and along the flat, the wave I started
with (and was skiing towards the back of it) all went down a long hill -
and the whole wave skied away from me. By the time I got to the bottom,
they were all around the next turn. From there on it only got worse.
I showed the skis to John, who said they probabaly had too much
structure in them. I took them in to Finn Sisu this morning, and both Tom
(who looked at them and disagreed with John: they have some structure, but
it's thinning out, and not enough to have created the problems I had) and
Greg Weier (who waxed the no. 2 overall skiers skis, among others (and who
I got to agree to help me wax mine in the future) told me that I had
brushed too much - that all that "official" advice about brushing cold wax
until no more comes aout and then brushing some more - is wrong.
So, experts, while I hope never to do a race in those temps for that
long again, how do you prepare a fast ski in cold condtions? How much do
you brush, and with what? (As a side note, while all the wax reps said
that had I used their brand, my skis would have been faster, all agreed
that the brand of wax doesn't make as much difference as all that, and
certainly not enough to have produced that much slowing.)
-Ken

************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

wrote in message ...
Hi Ken,

I had a "bad wax" experience many years ago after brushing with a brass
brush. I tend to avoid brushes with metal bristles now and wonder if
that might be an issue. I brushed mine with nylon and horsehair.
I've heard great things about FastWax white, so doubt the wax was an
issue.

Brian

Well guys, I initially use a Toko copper brush (that's pretty worn
out), and then follow it up with newer soft brass brushes that pull
more wax off the ski. I just don't see how you can brush a cold wax
and get the wax off the ski without using a soft metal brush. Even
that brush is slow going. I had skis as good as or better than the
others I skied with, and I used 3 layers of Swix CH4 covered with LF3,
and I brushed the last 3 layers extensively (thinking it was a final
layer). So, I obviously don't think that metal brushing or
over-brushing is the issue. If your skis are not skied in, then you'll
not want to brush so agressively.

I have tested 4 pair of skis, waxed the same, the day before a cold
Mora one year. One of the pair, Peltonen Supra RTM, a ski that was
supposed to be good in hard cold conditions, was just a dog. The test
was to ski an easy interval on each pair of skis. For some reason,
certain skis just don't do well in cold snow. (Although the snow on
Sat didn't _ski_ that slow...like a death march. It was actually
fairly fast snow.) Anyway, I also _don't_ think you can do a warm
scrape with some warm wax, put on 2 layers of cold wax, and expect to
have a cold wax job. I think it takes more layers of cold wax.

Jay Wenner

Anyway, I also _don't_ think you can do a warm
scrape with some warm wax, put on 2 layers of cold wax, and expect to
have a cold wax job. I think it takes more layers of cold wax.

Jay Wenner

I also rely on the soft copper brush for most of my brushing. I put
only one layer of Start Green over FW red. I did do more of a
saturation: letting the skis cool three times before ironing in again.
Don't know what I missed in skipping the scraping and brushing. Does
the hard wax scraping take some of the softer wax out? Perhaps I ended
up with a mixture that wore out by the time I hit the lakes.

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Sly D. Skeez wrote:

was to ski an easy interval on each pair of skis. For some reason,
certain skis just don't do well in cold snow. (Although the snow on
Sat didn't _ski_ that slow...like a death march. It was actually
fairly fast snow.) Anyway, I also _don't_ think you can do a warm
scrape with some warm wax, put on 2 layers of cold wax, and expect to
have a cold wax job. I think it takes more layers of cold wax.

I've gotten that particular advice now from a few wax gurus: more layers.
At least 2-3 more cold wax layers than the 2 I put on. There's still
quite a lack of consensus on the use of any metal brushes (although all
seem to agree on their use between layers - just not any clear agreement
on their use brushing out the last layer).

And, while it might not have been a "death march" for anyone with more or
less decent skis, believe me, when it's -5F, and you've got no glide down
or up the hills, nor yet on the flats, it sure was for me.
-Ken

************************************************** *********
Kenneth Salzberg
Hamline University
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - 50K Club St. Paul, MN 55104
************************************************** ****************

Gene,

Thank You for voluntering your skills and time for COLL. For all, Gene
was the head transportation guy for this race, from my view it looked
like it worked great. I had to wait less than a minute both before and
after the race to get into a warm bus.

Hills during the early part were tracked but when you got to the
flower gardens there was nothing to speak of. It really was not a
problem though. I only recall a couple of sections of herringboning
and they were not that long. Tracks on the lakes were just fine
although Lake Calhoun was a bit icy and it did strip some of my wax
off but at that point it was the least of my worries (arms and lower
back had most of my attention) I did not feel like shortening my zone
made any negative difference, I reduced it about two inches in the
back and an inch in front and tried hard to take advantage of that
double poling.

John OC




Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
Probably shortening your kick wax zone was as important as the cold wax
prep. In the hills, however, did you have to work harder for good grip,
with lots of herringbone? Were the hills tracked? I still haven't been
on the course. I was also toasted from being outside so many hours that
day, and my legs didn't feel like going anywhere Sunday. I think just
being out in zero F temps that long does it, plus you were out on the
lakes for quite awhile. It was fortunate that there was little wind.
There were lots of frostbite cases (after a couple of hours, I had to
jump in a bus when the end of my nose turned white). Good race,

Gene

John O'Connell wrote:

Marsh,

I did the classic also and although I felt pretty good during the race
and had a good placing (12th in age) for me I was toast later that day
and very sore most of yesterday. I wonder if it is due to the 3 hours
in very cold conditions that starts to beat you down....or it could be
just being 53 years old I also have a nasty little strip of frosbite
on my face...a battle scar if you will.

My race was the opposite, I lost time in the uphills (especially in
the Flower Gardens) but I tracked down and passed about 10-15 guys
during the last 20K. I've been playing around with Solda wax this year
and my skis were greasy fast on the flats. Given the very cold temps
this was a big surprise. I spent quite a bit of time this week getting
very cold wax into the ski and lots of intense brushing. In all I
probably ended up with 6 layers of cold wax. I raced on Solda F15 blue
(a low Fluor) covered with Hydrocarbon HC-28 which, I believe is some
kind of antistatic covered with two final layers of S-30....which is
their version of very cold powder. Rode special green for kick and I
did shorten my wax pocket about three inches, I had fine grip the
whole way.

John O'Connell

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

For some reason,
certain skis just don't do well in cold snow. (Although the snow on
Sat didn't _ski_ that slow...like a death march. It was actually
fairly fast snow.)

Jay Wenner

Well, in my naivite I'll try again. Does flex or pressure distribution
have anything to do with it? Other things being equal, in relatively
slow snow (i.e., cold), wouldn't a ski that has more area contacting the
snow during the glide phase have greater drag?

Also, Jim has talked about bogging down on the lake. Would lake snow be
more humid and thus respond differently than what was encountered in the
hills, depending on the waxes used?

Gene