Teichman A Really Slow Starter.

If Teichmann is simply not able to start quicker, and still gets his wins at global level over 3km, clearly it's is well long enough for distance racers to take on sprinters. This takes them on average 6 minutes, I think?

Me and a buddy used be around the same weight, I'm just taller. We'd time ourselves over various TT's, fly start. Over 1200m, I was not a match for him (me national MTB racer, he a guy with a bike). He'd beat me by multiple seconds, which simply is a lot.
Over 5000m, I could ride him off my wheel at will, and my PB is much faster than his, like half a minute. In my best runs, he would only be able to ride on my wheel for like 2-3km.
Even longer distances, the difference would probably taper off or even reduce. His thing is to ride for 2 minutes at his max, mine is around the 5-7 minutes. Not sure I could ever train to beat him over 1200m if he'd do any training too. And the other way around.

With sprint distances increased to 3km, I think that would kill the sprint specialism, at least for the current sprinters. Perhaps unless there would be 4 tough hills with long recoveries.

If FIS (and IBU for that matter) are to change anything at all, PLEASE equalize men's vs. women's course lengths. I find it so degrading that even on sprints, the ladies get to ski slightly shorter loops. Let them race the same distances, and we'll see how "slow" the girls are...making the end of pack boys look "girly".

On Mar 28, 11:03*pm, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.
wrote:

If Teichmann is simply not able to start quicker, and still gets his
wins at global level over 3km, clearly it's is well long enough for
distance racers to take on sprinters. This takes them on average 6
minutes, I think?

Closer to seven minutes, I would say, depending on the course:
Teichmann won in 7:11 for 3.7 km in Oberhof and in 8:33 for 3.3 in
Falun.


Me and a buddy used be around the same weight, I'm just taller. We'd
time ourselves over various TT's, fly start. Over 1200m, I was not a
match for him (me national MTB racer, he a guy with a bike). He'd beat
me by multiple seconds, which simply is a lot.

What do you think would have happened if you had done 1200 m four
times, three last with intervals of less than 10 minutes? (OK, 1200 m
on a bike is probably too short to equal a cross-country ski sprint,
but OTOH I dare assume you didn't have any downhills...)


Over 5000m, I could ride him off my wheel at will, and my PB is much
faster than his, like half a minute. In my best runs, he would only be
able to ride on my wheel for like 2-3km.

On the basis of this, I would say that I would have advised you rather
than him to pursue Olympic gold in this sport:-)

The sprinters are stronger (and usually bigger) than the distance guys
and they certainly have more "speed in the genes" (which has to do
with the percentage of fast-twitch muscle cells and probably some
other factors), but they are still endurance type of guys rather than
sprinters as we know them from most other sports (with the possible
exception of road cycling).


With sprint distances increased to 3km, I think that would kill the
sprint specialism, at least for the current sprinters. Perhaps unless
there would be 4 tough hills with long recoveries.

Or maybe we could have morning qualis and afternoon quarters one day
and semis and the final the following day? I would imagine we would
see a number of new faces in the finals even at the current distance.

I must admit I was not a little gobsmacked when I heard about it and I
first thought I must've misheard it (and I still don't know whether
there's any rumour to it). Maybe it was that there will be more 2-3 km
"prolog"-type races in addition to "traditional" sprints during the
World Cup season? It would make for "good " TV and "exciting" pursuit
races à la Falun...


If FIS (and IBU for that matter) are to change anything at all, PLEASE
equalize men's vs. women's course lengths. I find it so degrading that
even on sprints, the ladies get to ski slightly shorter loops. Let them
race the same distances, and we'll see how "slow" the girls are...making
the end of pack boys look "girly".

I seriously doubt that there is any risk at end of the pack boys
looking girly - and certainly never in the way Paula Radcliffe one
year outperforming *every* male marathoner in the UK!

But I must admit that cross-country skiing is one of the rare sports
where the "equivalent" distances for women are still shorter than
those for men.

OTOH Claudia Nystad would probably have needed a bigger trophy
cabinet, if the 5 km had remained in the calendar:-)


Anders

Excellent remarks Anders.

In case of longer sprints, a two-day event would be interesting indeed. Near full recovery. No holding back.
Especially when combined with a distance program in the some stadium, perhaps?

I compared some ski times in Biathlon. Magdalena Neuner takes 1 minute more for 12.5km (no-one to draft behind for her) than a 57th male worldcup finisher. Typically a national champion from Central Europe. So, Neuner is well inside the top-100 of male Biathletes. Those guys by no means are girls, but top women are just something else.
Women are built to do distance. Global Elite women are fully worthy athletes, full distance. That's why they are so insanely quick in marathons and so hard to beat even for full-time athletes in full distance triathlons. They go the distance, just don't reduce their speed as much.
What if the standard of past years continued, 50km mass start races being like a long warm-up for Northug's sprint? Neuner would likely be able to hang on to a pretty quick group.

To raise the standard across the field, and to give top women a new goal, let them race together. Backmarker men will try harder, top women will laugh harder. If only Neuner could shoot better, she'd then be a top finisher in the individual men's race :-)
But seriously, I am a modern man, I thinkw omen are equal. Even if they take 10% longer to complete a race. When did any of us last finish within 10% of a top Olympian male at peak strength trying his very best, at any endurance sport?

On Apr 1, 12:14*am, Jan Gerrit Klok Jan.Gerrit.Klok.
wrote:

I compared some ski times in Biathlon. Magdalena Neuner takes 1 minute
more for 12.5km (no-one to draft behind for her) than a 57th male
worldcup finisher. Typically a national champion from Central Europe.
So, Neuner is well inside the top-100 of male Biathletes. Those guys by
no means are girls, but top women are just something else.

I'm amazed! There are 4 shootings in both the 12.5 km Mass Start (F)
and the 12.5 km Pursuit (M) and therefore the ratio of "easy" and
"hard" parts of the course should be the same - but are the "hard"
parts equally hard, i.e. are the same loops used in both events?

I'm tempted to assume that a lot can be explained by a low technical
level of the "more exotic" end of the pack male skiers. I mean there
*must* be some perfectly simple explanation:-)


Women are built to do distance. Global Elite women are fully worthy
athletes, full distance. That's why they are so insanely quick in
marathons and so hard to beat even for full-time athletes in full
distance triathlons. They go the distance, just don't reduce their
speed as much.

Full distance triathlons are something else, but there's no way a
female skier, even if she's a top world class elite skier, should be
able to make it to top 60 in a World Cup level race in an event
lasting around 30 minutes or less!

For instance, when I take the winning time in Sunday's of 30 km (F)
national champion, calculate a 50 km time for her and compare it with
the (M) result list, I must note that she would have beaten 2 of 178
finishers. (The conditions didn't change between the events and the
same course was used in both events.)



But seriously, I am a modern man, I thinkw omen are equal. Even if they
take 10% longer to complete a race. When did any of us last finish
within 10% of a top Olympian male at peak strength trying his very
best, at any endurance sport?

Then again, I don't need a woman outski me to know I'm rather pathetic
- and the more pathetic, the harder I try:-)


Anders

Arguably the girls have it tougher, spending more time skiing, the same preparing to shoot, and actually shoot. Neuner doesn't waste time emptying her rifle. She just wants to get going with her penalty loops.

I was too lazy (go figure) to research whether or not they'd designed a special "sissy" course for the girls to use as an alternative 2.5k loop. I'd find that most disrespectful from IBU and course designers, if you ask me. These ladies do the same hours, have probably on average fewer(!) children to take of between skiing, and train on the same hills as the men.

Part of the explanation is probably that biathlon WC racing not only attracts (or produces) most excellent skiers to win the races, but also does offer more opportunities to exotics.
It is not uncommon to have the last quarter of the men's field be out-skied by 15% or worse.
10% between men and women, especially with downhills offering less of a time spender for women, is not unheard of. In running marathons, it's below that figure (2h03.59 vs 2h15.25, or 9.2%). Women endure endurance just fine. In 100m running women are closer, but with disputable times (long ago).
2008 1500m best times (VO2max sensitive) differed 11.8%.
A (ski) race over just one climb would get the greatest time diff between men and women, downhill skiing perhaps the smallest.

In XC individual races you'll probably see much smaller gaps between Male #1 and #100. Closer racing. The winners however are not often a surprise. I suppose that means consistency.
Biathletes are also quite consistent for speed. We just see likes of Bjoerndalen en Sikora, with peaking and strong starting seasons, to now lose so time over youngster who are fresh to the WC, or up and coming.

Biathlon is just lower-threshold for Worldcup participation. Just Germany, Norway and Russia between the 3 of them could probably fill a worldcup field with less than 5% speed diff, had they been allowed to take so many athletes to one race. See how Peiffer can do a few WC's to get a tast of it, and then win one. 1 or 2% behind him, the next group (or less talented) athletes are waiting.

I'm glad Neuner is still getting a win once in a while. With he poor shooting, often there are a bunch of German girl above her in the rankings. Although, if she'd be kicked off the biathlon #1 team, my little angel would surely be invited by the XC team...

I think backmarker worldcuppers ski just fine technically, but have a smaller motor. But that's coming from a big motor with bad motor skills.