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Skating in citizen classic races



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 11th 04, 03:13 PM
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

I think there is probably a lot going on in the lead pack that is not
apparent. Switching lanes to ride the inside of the curve is very
common, for example (i.e., for the running folks, it's running the
tangents). But, there's a lot more in terms of jockeying for
position, or if you are leading to try and put someone else out in
front. You always want to be near the front (to be able to react to
moves and to avoid the accordian effect) but not right at the front
(grooming the trail and blocking the wind for those behind).

Cheers,
Brian

In article , John
O'Connell wrote:
What I did notice in the TV coverge of the leaders (top 60 or so) in
the Vasaloppet was frequent lane shifting for no apparent reason, that
does give you the legal option for a quick skate to get over to the
next track...it seemed to be part of a strategy. At that level the
transition is so smooth and powerfull that I believe it did allow for
some acceleration.

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  #12  
Old March 11th 04, 04:41 PM
sknyski
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

It was so icy in spots
and wax had been stripped that many people resorted to skating just to
get up some of the moderate hills.


People who do that don't GET IT. That's part of the game. You wax so
you won't get it stripped off. If you lose your wax, then tough. I
dp'd the last 4km of the Birkie because it warmed up so much that I
had no kick. No skating.

But I may be in the minority with my "play by the rules" mentality, in
today's "I'm OK, you're OK, we're all good people regardless of what
we do" society.

bt
  #13  
Old March 11th 04, 04:48 PM
sknyski
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

I also hate herringbone at present and am almost sympathetic to someone doing
diag-skate just to keep moving.


So you're saying that it's ok to "wimp skate" in places because a) you
don't like herringbone, or b) it's to slow? Herringbone IS SUPPOSED
to be slow, it's just walking up a hill. The only way to do it faster
is to run.

Again (see other post), if you're not going to play by the rules in a
striding race, then don't enter. Stick with your stupid skating races
that are increasingly becoming the domain of off-season triathlon
geeks and cyclists who can do well because, well, skating fast
requires minimal proficiency on skis.

bt (who was upset to learn this year that he can't skate-turn around
corners in a striding race if there is a track there. what does he do
now? he lives by the rules! what a concept!)

If I've upset anyone, I apologize. A half hour of NPR should calm you
down.
  #14  
Old March 11th 04, 06:03 PM
Dell Todd
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

"Gary Jacobson" wrote in message .. .

When I see this at first I am angry, but then I don't care. Whats there to
be upset about? These folks aren't winning any pizes. Unless of course they
are planning to vie for the Johann Muhlegg cheater award in the next annual
Gunde Svan RSN award.

Gary Jacosbon
Rosendale, NY


Gary,

Let me see if I understand you correctly; it is OK to cheat (break the
rules) if are not on the podium.

Hm ?

Dell
  #15  
Old March 11th 04, 06:16 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

sknyski wrote:

I also hate herringbone at present and am almost sympathetic to someone doing
diag-skate just to keep moving.


So you're saying that it's ok to "wimp skate" in places because a) you
don't like herringbone, or b) it's to slow?


NO.

By "almost sympathetic" I'm saying that I'm personally not going to bust them.

Herringbone IS SUPPOSED
to be slow, it's just walking up a hill. The only way to do it faster
is to run.


Right, and you can run it way fast and relaxed if you know what you're doing.

Again (see other post), if you're not going to play by the rules in a
striding race, then don't enter. Stick with your stupid skating races


Well, that's on them not me. I don't skate. But I don't bust people's butts for a
minor infraction done a couple times.

I advocate a 3-step plan to fix this scene. Obviously it's wrong what people do.

How to fix it best?

I suggest:

1.) Create a 'heads up' awareness at the following races with pre-race
announcement and encouragement of self-DQ.

2.) If that didn't work, put marshalls on the course.

3.) If that didn't work start allowing peers to turn each other in.

I think we can get things sorted out quickly without people busting each other.

Sure, there's been backsliding. I say to slide it back instead of hammer it back.

--

Jeff Potter
****
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  #16  
Old March 11th 04, 06:54 PM
levi
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

In article , "Ken
Roberts" wrote:

Seems to me that skating up a hill is observably different from
herringbone -- and therefore consistently-enforceable, if there are
observers.

Gary Jacobson wrote
At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating
up the steep hills. Why? I don't know.


Because skating up a hill is easier and/or faster than herringbone. And
switching to skating engages some different muscles than classic striding
and double-poling, which helps fight against fatigue.

And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating
around the 80 km mark.


I don't have a big problem with people who sincerely intended to do the
whole race pure Classic, but their grip wax stopped working -- provided they
are not podium-contenders. I guess Jeff's idea of removing the bib seems
like a reasonable way to self-identify the situation. Maybe we could have a
separate category on the official results list, say "FNC" for "Finished but
Not pure Classic".

Actually I feel sorry for people who try to do the whole Vasaloppet course
with Classic technique. Except for that first big hill, it's a beautiful
skating course -- and it was beautifully groomed for skating last year when
I did the Oppet Spar Skridsko.


Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for disallowing diagonal-skate
in a "classical" race.
  #17  
Old March 11th 04, 08:57 PM
Griss
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Default Skating in citizen classic races


"levi" wrote

Somewhat heretically, I can find no basis for disallowing diagonal-skate
in a "classical" race.


Except for the fact it's not classical technique, and cheating vis a vis
real classical technique, no, there is no basis 8-)

Grissy


  #18  
Old March 11th 04, 09:31 PM
Griss
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
Seems to me that skating up a hill is observably different from
herringbone -- and therefore consistently-enforceable, if there are
observers.


Exactly. Of course serious races do have enforcers often backed up by
video.

Gary Jacobson wrote
At Konig Ludwig Lauf this year I saw many people skating
up the steep hills. Why? I don't know.


Because skating up a hill is easier and/or faster than herringbone. And
switching to skating engages some different muscles than classic striding
and double-poling, which helps fight against fatigue.


And is cheating, of course.

And when I sked the Vasaloppet, I saw many people skating
around the 80 km mark.


I don't have a big problem with people who sincerely intended to do the
whole race pure Classic, but their grip wax stopped working -- provided

they
are not podium-contenders. I guess Jeff's idea of removing the bib seems
like a reasonable way to self-identify the situation. Maybe we could have

a
separate category on the official results list, say "FNC" for "Finished

but
Not pure Classic".


OK, this I couldn't disagree with this more. Sincerity and good intentions
have nothing to do with whether you cheat or not ("I didn't intend to when I
started the race, so I'm not a really bad cheater, just a little bit of a
cheater"). Stopping to quickly re-wax and/or doing the best you can is what
you do, not cheat. This is the way of dealing with changing wax conditions,
missing the wax, or wearing off wax. It's part of the sport and one of the
reasons why classic is a more challenging (and better imho) technique than
skating. If you just can't do that, fine, no big deal, it happens. But,
then you quit the race (e.g. take your bib off or leave the course). I'm
assuming the FNC is a joke? There is no need for a new term - it's DNF. If
they don't finish using the designated technique, they simply do not finish,
period. Why would anyone enter a race and not follow the rules for that
race and still want to be called a finisher?

Actually I feel sorry for people who try to do the whole Vasaloppet course
with Classic technique. Except for that first big hill, it's a beautiful
skating course -- and it was beautifully groomed for skating last year

when
I did the Oppet Spar Skridsko.

Ken


OK now we get into the old classic vs. skate ****ing match (said in good
humor!). Actually (seriously, since you brought it up) I feel happen to
sorry for people who wouldn't or couldn't do a long race striding or
understand why others prefer the better technique. I won't say they are
poor or incomplete skiers, but .... After all, classic skiing is much more
fun, challenging, and satisfying than skating. In classic brute power can't
overcome mediocre technique (as in skating) 8-). That's why I love skiing
(both) - because it involves so much technique to master vs. other endurance
sports, and classic just feels better and is more fun to me.

Grissy


  #19  
Old March 11th 04, 10:12 PM
jim farrell
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

In classic brute power can't
overcome mediocre technique (as in skating) 8-). That's why I love skiing
(both) - because it involves so much technique to master vs. other endurance
sports, and classic just feels better and is more fun to me.

Grissy



I love skiing both techniques as well, but in DP situations, i think
brute force overcomes technique just as it CAN in skate races.

Jim
  #20  
Old March 11th 04, 11:35 PM
Griss
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Default Skating in citizen classic races

"jim farrell" wrote in message
...
In classic brute power can't
overcome mediocre technique (as in skating) 8-). That's why I love

skiing
(both) - because it involves so much technique to master vs. other

endurance
sports, and classic just feels better and is more fun to me.

Grissy



I love skiing both techniques as well, but in DP situations, i think
brute force overcomes technique just as it CAN in skate races.

Jim


Yea, of course you're right. I was exaggerating a little in the spirit of
the irresolvable debate (and as I said, intended in good humor). DP is
about my least favorite part of striding because I don't have as much core
and upper body power as I'd like. Pretty wimpy actually!

Griss.


 




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