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#11
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Booker wrote
[ lots of good advice and anaylsis ] . . . roller blades don't bend, so they don't respond in the same way to weighting/unweighting that is central to any skiing. They are very good at simulating angulation though and are good practice for the new skis that respond well to "rolling the knees". I agree, it is amazing to me how much linked downhill turns on rollerskis with strongly flexed ankles feels like carving on modern shaped skis. Even though the physics is completely different. My problem is that the cost of replacing wheels -- after the inside edges of the wheels have been grinded by putting a little "skid" on the end of each christie turn for braking on a moderate downhill. I think the wheel-replacement per vertical feet of descent is almost as much as buying lift-tickets at a downhill resort. Ken |
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#12
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Ken Roberts wrote:
Why? How? What is it about the physics or biomechanics of rollerskis that makes them more "specific" for backcountry skiing than inline skates? Because you use a boot that flexes under the ball of your foot to transfer power straight back, where blades will only allow you to kick off at an angle to the line of the skate. How many rollerskiers can make linked christie/parallel turns down a hill like a good inline skater? How many rollerskiers can make a long glide on a single ski and change between the inside and outside edges 8 times like I can on inline skates (or on a single backcountry snow ski going down a firm-snow slope). And how many rollerbladers can use good straight ahead diagonal stride to cover a lot of ground over the great majority of muscle use time spent over a day? Personally I use blades, but my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor and professional backcountry tour leader uses rollers in direct preference because they're more like skis for the business ofbasically covering ground. If you're in a steep up, steep down mode then I would say they'd have little utility, but a lot of backcountry skiing is about covering reasonably level ground in straight lines, which rollerskis can help with better than blades. My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique than downhill with day's hut to hut in Norway typically involving single figures of tricky turns, but double figures of kilometers following tracks. YMMV. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#13
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Booker C. Bense wrote:
_ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are notorious for messing up your classic striding technique I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic coaches, use and suggest roller skis. Me, I use blades 'cause they're more fun IMHO, but the serious Nordic folk I know all say rollers do a better job. far as turning goes they are no better than roller blades and many of the older designs are just terrible. Granted. _ You can even practice something that looks like a telemark turn, although I'm not sure that it's all that useful other than as a quad burning exercise. I imagine it would be a bit like a tele on randonee gear, on tippy-toes. Must admit the one occasion I tried to initiate one I abandoned it in favour of not doing a body-plant on tarmac... _ Running is good aerobic training, but on flat ground it doesn't provide the quad and body core exercise that skiing requires. I dislike running because of the impact (I'm a heavy, clmsy runner and have very high arches, it just hurts too much), but cycling I do like. Not much for the body core, but it is good for the quads. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#14
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Whoops -- I meant "inline skates" (not rollerskis) for snow-ski-like
downhill turning feel. What I meant to say was: Booker wrote [ lots of good advice and anaylsis ] . . . roller blades don't bend, so they don't respond in the same way to weighting/unweighting that is central to any skiing. They are very good at simulating angulation though and are good practice for the new skis that respond well to "rolling the knees". I agree, it is amazing to me how much linked downhill turns on inline skates with strongly flexed ankles feels like carving on modern shaped skis. Even though the physics is completely different. My problem is that the cost of replacing skate wheels -- after the inside edges of the wheels have been grinded by putting a little "skid" on the end of each christie turn for braking on a moderate downhill. I think the wheel-replacement cost per vertical foot of descent might be almost as much as buying lift-tickets at a downhill resort. Ken |
#15
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"Peter Clinch" wrote in message ... Booker C. Bense wrote: _ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are notorious for messing up your classic striding technique I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic coaches, use and suggest roller skis. I, too, was surprised by that comment. They are certainly recommended for classic stride training by the Ski Research Group out of Eagle River. I would note that the major roller ski manufacturers, in particular, V2, make different models for classic or skate stride. A free rolling roller ski might not develop a good kick and glide technique because of lack of resistance but good roller skis all have resistance built in now. Tommy T. |
#16
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Peter Clinch wrote
My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique. In that case I can see how you'd think of "classic" rollerskis, which have a clutch to prevent the rollerski from rolling backwards (sort of like the effect of a climbing skin). But the Original Poster mentioned "telemark turns", so I didn't think he was looking for that. (But then some "skate" devices other than rollerskis do also have a clutch, so why not try using those to train for flat touring?) a lot of backcountry skiing is about covering reasonably level ground in straight lines If I know a pretty tour that's mostly flat and gentle, I prefer to wait until a day when the snow is pretty firm, and then _skate_ most of it on very-light skating skis. For a great article about ski skating in the backcountry, see "Skating's Second Season -- backcountry skiing takes on a new twist", by Mark Nadell, in http://farwestnordic.org/Newsletters...cnews_2005.pdf Even with some new snow, like 8 cm / 3 inches of fluffy powder -- if it's over a firm base -- is fun skating on rolling terrain with light skating skis. For learning technique and neural control, the value of Classic rollerskis is very debatable in the XC set-track skiing community (as Booker pointed out). For training endurance and speed of specific leg muscles for flat backcountry skiing, Yes I can see value in Classic rollerskis -- but that raises the question of: ? traditional roller skates ("quad" skates) versus ? Classic rollerskis which I've never seen debated. my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor My theory is that nordic instructors are unconsciously against inline skates because they're afraid that if people found it how much easy fun they could be having moving on their feet, the demand for techniques and character-building tours of one-dimensional skiing on snow would drop. Ken _________________________________ Peter Clinch wrote Ken Roberts wrote: Why? How? What is it about the physics or biomechanics of rollerskis that makes them more "specific" for backcountry skiing than inline skates? Because you use a boot that flexes under the ball of your foot to transfer power straight back, where blades will only allow you to kick off at an angle to the line of the skate. How many rollerskiers can make linked christie/parallel turns down a hill like a good inline skater? How many rollerskiers can make a long glide on a single ski and change between the inside and outside edges 8 times like I can on inline skates (or on a single backcountry snow ski going down a firm-snow slope). And how many rollerbladers can use good straight ahead diagonal stride to cover a lot of ground over the great majority of muscle use time spent over a day? Personally I use blades, but my friendly neighbourhood nordic instructor and professional backcountry tour leader uses rollers in direct preference because they're more like skis for the business ofbasically covering ground. If you're in a steep up, steep down mode then I would say they'd have little utility, but a lot of backcountry skiing is about covering reasonably level ground in straight lines, which rollerskis can help with better than blades. My backcountry touring typically uses more nordic flat technique than downhill with day's hut to hut in Norway typically involving single figures of tricky turns, but double figures of kilometers following tracks. YMMV. |
#17
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Peter Clinch wrote: Booker C. Bense wrote: _ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are notorious for messing up your classic striding technique I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic coaches, use and suggest roller skis. _ If you're racing they are a must, and for skating I'm not aware of any drawbacks if you can get enough friction in the wheels to simulate snow speeds. There is nothing like specific training and roller skiing is as specific as you can get without snow, but until they figure out a way to simulate the effect of weighting the ski to set the kick wax, roller skiing can lead to some bad habits that require unlearning once you get on snow. For a good skier with a coach, this disadvantage is greatly outweighed by the specific traing provided, but for a novice skier with no supervision it can really cause problems. _ Back in the dark ages when I was XC racing, my coaches used to emphasize that aspect a lot during dryland training. We were taught to focus on weighting the ski during roller skiing even though the mechanism did not require it, or at least not to the extent that a highly cambered racing ski does. Personally, I detested roller skiing and would rather do just about any other kind of dryland training. I'm sure roller skis are much better now that back then, but from what I read on rec.skiing.nordic it seems like this is still a problem. _ As for the original poster, you might try poking around ebay or garage sales for a Nordic Track trainer. Here's what I mean http://tinyurl.com/49blg _ You can get them used fairly cheap and they do provide a good ski specific workout. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQhThf2TWTAjn5N/lAQGJCgP/ecT4X/j1ADZY4BX6I2jxyXYtZbseiURm 32pWd/aykW1TXHjZaygCmXkDnPHjdBkOgPs4nHoLbjsH9fwmMzEtusZe BMzgWOHf mvbeTX6Jp67G8bayE56XFHNeIihuBcDn9+ZkjeaWSC4woDQRrW nilu/xEAWx4Bl2 iMuv1tnu+ic= =eMpU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#18
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article 5V4Rd.23534$ya6.9984@trndny01, Tommy T. wrote: "Peter Clinch" wrote in message ... Booker C. Bense wrote: _ It depends what you define as "ski specific", roller skis are notorious for messing up your classic striding technique I'd not heard that, to be honest. Also the case that the technically best nordic striders I personally know, all current or past BASI Nordic coaches, use and suggest roller skis. I, too, was surprised by that comment. They are certainly recommended for classic stride training by the Ski Research Group out of Eagle River. _ All I have to say is that neither England or the USA are noted for their dominance in any kind of XC racing never mind classic. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQhTlpWTWTAjn5N/lAQGrdAQAu2fnDUs8Qw91tF/MOE0OTiTQz6zS2yUm wulGFfZGbfA8G6ZLs+GJzZpg4/qR7iYibF8Uxpf+efoMdC/d2i/Rqej9l7mdcqxd XPpHjRFayeDbU0vAlsL7zXWYmr2EahwM/v+OpbLCn02gpj4gihz6g2zYiVNyCRSg 8BIWKIz+AiQ= =AkDe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#19
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"Booker C. Bense" bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Feb.17.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote _ All I have to say is that neither England or the USA are noted for their dominance in any kind of XC racing never mind classic. Aw, come on man. Didn't Bill Koch win an Olympic Medal? My son was on the U.S. Ski Orienteering Team for the World Championships in 1994. My recollection is that none of the U.S. men successfully finished the course. For the 2002 SWOC, the top U.S. woman was a Colorado resident born in 1944. (She's a dear friend and while I've given her age I won't give her name.) Tommy T. |
#20
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"Booker C. Bense" bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Feb.17.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote in message ... [...] _ As for the original poster, you might try poking around ebay or garage sales for a Nordic Track trainer. Here's what I mean http://tinyurl.com/49blg _ You can get them used fairly cheap and they do provide a good ski specific workout. I wasn't specific enough in stating what I wanted. I don't have any problem with a diamond glide; I am much more interested in regaining turning skills so I can ski down a slope amid trees without as great a chance of serious injury. I'm aerobically fit; as I said, I routinely run 10 miles at a shot, and more important, I do one tiring hike over very rough, trailless territory each week (usually with class 3 or 4 rock). In fact, the latter activity makes a lot of people think that I am being overly cautious about skiing. (me, me, me: http://hwstock.org/bp/html/Traverse.htm http://hwstock.org/dams/html/DSCN6660.htm http://hwstock.org/bripi/html/FlyingHarlan.htm ) But my affliction requires lots of specific training so I can learn to replace cerebellar control with cerebral control. This process is very inefficient (there is a reason the cerebellum, though only 10% of the brain's mass, has 60% of the neurons). I walked over 200 miles on sidewalk curbs to regain my balance; and I took every opportunity to walk over any rough surface, and I graded my hikes to successively harder and harder terrain. My right foot still doesn't always move as predicted, so I've learned to use my left foot to lead in many tight situations. Now I have to do the same thing with skiing motions, particularly the fast motions in turns. I'll find a way. Thanks all, sincerely, for your help; this discussion has given me food for thought. |
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