If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Ken Roberts wrote:
-- boots for serious ski-skate racing have soles that are pretty stiff, similar to a Scarpa F1 AT boot. But they also have toe bindings designed to take skating forces through them, where the Dynafit doesn't. Agressive skating and trudging uphill aren't necessarily comparable from a design point of view. -- the most popular binding for serious ski-skate racing (Salomon Pilot) _does_ indeed have a _hook_ whose purpose is to keep the heel and ski close. I was quite aware of that, which is why I pointed out that if there was any advanatage for an AT setup for skating then an AT setup for skating is just what be found in competition -- unlike most tele boot-binding combintions, the Salomon Pilot binding has no resistance which must first be overcome in order to press the heel of the boot against the ski. For a "rolling terrain" setup using 3 pin bindings (pretty normal) there's no real resistance to pushing the heel down. The _mushiness_ of the heel connection ("rocker launch") in most telemark boot-binding combinations is a very strange concept to ski-skate racers. That's where an AT binding has an obvious advantage for skating. Quite possibly, but relying on skating possibilities for backcountry travel is rather wishful thinking in a lot of cases: kick 'n stick is generally more likely to come into play, especially over many miles with a heavy pack, and it's there that a natural walking motion rolling off a flexing foot is a winner. You could do that with an F1/Dynafit, I suppose, but not everyone chooses F1s or Dynafits for various good reasons. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Ads |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Peter Clinch wrote: bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.18.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: _ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain. Particularly, if there is any chance of skating. But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be using rigid boots now. _ They pretty much are... They certainly don't bend at the toe in normal use. Many people skate with combi boots, that allow toe bend for diagonal striding, but pure skate boots are pretty stiff. Rolling terrain is a place for wax. _ Not everywhere, I have my "rolling terrain AT" setup on waxless skis that most people would put NNN/BC or 3 pins on. There are places where waxing works well, but for most days in the Sierra you'd need to carry 3 or 4 waxes and be changing/rewaxing every hour or so. I guess you could put a randonee binding on a ski designed for grip wax, but I think there's probably a reason why nobody does. _ BAH, I'm not convinced that backcountry gear is anywhere near optimized. It's just everybody copying what everbody else does. I don't think we yet have good answers for the compromises BC skiing requires. You can use grip wax on ANY ski, granted it works better on skis with more camber, but it works. Besides, I'm doing it and there was a recent article in Backcountry about other people that have tried it as well. If you're using skins in rolling terrain, even with heavy packs, it makes a huge reduction in speed (hitting some whiteout in a navigation tight spot last year, we all put our 40 mm mohair skins on to slow us down to a predictable trudge) _ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT == Skins, is just your prejudice. the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but it's just not the same. Quite: and I find kick and glide is the way to eat up miles. Perhaps we have a different idea of "rolling terrain"? _ True, my idea of rolling terrain includes things that are fun to ski down. You can get really good gear for making turns and really good gear for covering miles, but finding compromise gear that will do both is difficult. Believe me, I got a garage full of experiments, some more sucessful than others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative if you don't want to telemark. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP+M9yGTWTAjn5N/lAQEZXgP7B3S72WUu9VZShKaqOfRUsdHMppfWbxTW f6e8tjEOQQDNrH88FYkUBVD8PWxoZJViVc87QVWbxusTdSac1A QYc+tBx9cEC+pX jHnz88Xu9DWUjcHePG206+ZKg95kxV11sRxvneq3iH2WFVyuhL Azl3JKAmOiD1iJ JQcUCf4lkS0= =gm6j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
_ Not everywhere, I have my "rolling terrain AT" setup on waxless
skis that most people would put NNN/BC or 3 pins on. There are places where waxing works well, but for most days in the Sierra you'd need to carry 3 or 4 waxes and be changing/rewaxing every hour or so. If the sun is out, that might be every 50-100 ft. (It depends upon the tree spacing.) -- The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses. These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
"Ken Roberts" wrote in message : Skate power is mainly through the heel. Off topic. Maybe this is a topic for rsn, but... From what I've gathered through various sources as I was learning to skate is that the skate push is through the whole foot. The APU website (of Jim Galanes... ex-US ski team, 4 athletes in 2002 Olympics) before they updated it, used to have a technique page where he said that the push is through the whole foot, with the greatest pressure in the forefoot. When I was learning, I didn't pay attention to this advice because I was just trying to get down the trail without falling, but as I've gotten faster (to about 2:30 for hilly 50K in three self taught seasons), it's helped a lot as a visualization technique to get my weight forward into a proper position. If you agree that a balanced weight forward position is good, how is that going to work with more weight in the heel than the forefoot? Stand up, bend your ankles, get your torso to about the same angle as your shins... where is your weight? In the forefoot area. If it's mostly on your heels, you are in a "sitting in a bucket" position, no? Peter Clinch wrote But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be using rigid boots now. Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether skating on ice, pavement, or snow. What I am describing is not a toe push because the whole foot includes the heel. Maybe you mean "heel down", rather than "heel push"? If I get the rolling over the toes feel when pushing off, that is a beginner-like muff and pushing "back" too much. I concentrate on getting my ankle flexed enough at the start of the push and directing the push directly to the side of my FOOT (I visually a spot at the back of the ball of my foot), not body. All of the race videos I see with side views (and all the skiers in person in town, where everyone seems to have great technique), the push is more to the side of the body than the back, but not directly to the side... more like perpendicular to the ski. In uphills (V1), the skis are V'ed out more and the push is more to the back than on fast terrain when the skis have a smaller angle between them. Since you are pushing off to the other ski and that other ski is generally "stepped" forward (though you should push/fall to it rather than stepping to it), isn't your push is angled off towards the back by roughly arcsin("step" length/push length) from directly to the side? That's what I see in the videos anyway and my skating has improved a lot since I have starting watching race videos (of past 4 Olympics, Janne's shorter downloads). Of the technique advice that I see in publications and internet I've found some good, some bad, but even some of the good advice is not technically accurate (pushing to the side) but more useful as visualization help. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
lac.stanford.edu wrote:
_ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT == Skins, is just your prejudice. Fair enough, I was just working from the setups I've seen in the shops and on the hill, which is, of course, hardly exhaustive. others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative if you don't want to telemark. Though as I've said a few times, tele gear is quite viable if you don't want to (or can't) telemark. I was using it for years before I could do teles. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 14:28:43 +0000, Peter Clinch
wrote: bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.19.03@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: _ True, I was not suggesting that, but your contention that AT == Skins, is just your prejudice. Fair enough, I was just working from the setups I've seen in the shops and on the hill, which is, of course, hardly exhaustive. others. If you can get beyond your prejudices about what you can and cannot do with AT gear, I think it's a viable alternative if you don't want to telemark. Though as I've said a few times, tele gear is quite viable if you don't want to (or can't) telemark. I was using it for years before I could do teles. Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to preferred location to use it). According to many expert instructors, a good backcountry skier will have an assortment of ski techniques and use them as appropriate, sometimes switching during a run. This goes back to the early days of skiing in North America, when there was no distinction between different types of skiing. Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) ------------------------------------------------ at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
[ Gary S. ]
Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to preferred location to use it). How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to skiing technique or location. Martin -- "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." -Paul Graham, On Lisp |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:46:18 +0100, Martin Thornquist
wrote: [ Gary S. ] Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to preferred location to use it). How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to skiing technique or location. "Free the heels, free the mind". It makes more sense, but is less clear to those outside the world of skiing. Happy trails, Gary (net.yogi.bear) ------------------------------------------------ at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Martin Thornquist wrote: [ Gary S. ] Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to preferred location to use it). How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to skiing technique or location. _ The funny thing is that most gear under the current definition of telemark is not "free heel". I think there is a 3rd class of skiing emerging that I would call "constrained heel". Sure you can lift your heel up, but you have to exert a fair amount of force to do so depending on exactly what boots/bindings you have. I think that this is enough of a difference that it actually requires a change in technique. This is neither bad or good, just different. It does make the problem of finding gear for the tours'n'turn compromise even more confusing though. _ For good or ill, we are stuck with the "telemark" label. Exactly what it is seems to change drastically every few years though... Everything in backcountry skiing is a compromise in some way, the art is picking which area you are willing to suffer the most. In my experience the biggest thing you give up in choosing AT gear is the joy of the telemark turn. _ Now if I could only get over this damn flu and actually go skiing instead of sitting in bed. Is anybody skiing? Post some trip reports, the important thing is getting out there, what you do it on matters little in the end. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP+cEZ2TWTAjn5N/lAQFduQP9FGJMM4ndR/Fr/nBr3YNpUMAnZbRkhHxy 4MPUSEgggCQBHK9O5RIn7hy/yno93dbHIL4LYU94zAwqpPX5KfQSTobbxFJGKNZe a7xNeoXs7aA7vFMjfPtylQchX5gIzGZB3OWaWeCSnTtqfTvpJ4 4bM/INrIAQ4XNZ Q6IygjsJA4k= =w9gQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Idontwantspam@net wrote: On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:46:18 +0100, Martin Thornquist wrote: [ Gary S. ] Which is why some of us try to avoid calling it tele gear, but use a term like backcountry skis (which of course shows my bias as to preferred location to use it). How about "freeheel"? This sounds like a technical description of the gear (the other category being "fixed heel"), with no bias as to skiing technique or location. "Free the heels, free the mind". Would this to be true. I've found many telemark skiers to be among the most parochial folks I've ever met. Go figure. It makes more sense, but is less clear to those outside the world of skiing. It's not really that clear, since freeheel gear includes classic and skating-style cross country equipment, along with the continuum of telemark gear from leather boots (less common these days, but still available nonetheless) on three-pin bindings and "skinny" skis to, say Scarpa T-Races on Linkens with Fischer Big Stix 10.6s. Besides, doesn't the phrase "backcountry skis" include AT gear? (It's what I'm finding to be more and more common in the backcountry every year.) cheers, john |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Ski trail on US side of the Soo? | [email protected] | Nordic Skiing | 1 | February 3rd 05 09:58 PM |
Palm side exit point for pole length measure | -JP- | Nordic Skiing | 1 | March 22nd 04 03:02 AM |
Near fatal ski incident | Me | Nordic Skiing | 22 | February 27th 04 01:47 PM |
Quickest route Geneva airport to Val D'Isere | Greg Hilton | European Ski Resorts | 20 | November 28th 03 12:02 PM |
which side are you on | Richard Walsh | Alpine Skiing (moderated) | 5 | September 16th 03 05:57 PM |